Rebecca Warren 00:00
For our Talent Table today, we have two fantastic panelists. We’ve got Jig and we’ve got Mark. And so I’m going to ask them to introduce themselves, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and maybe what you’re looking forward to on this webinar. And then we’ll get to our fun question of the month. So Mark, I’m going to go to you first, go ahead and introduce yourself, and then we’ll throw it on over to Jig.
Mark Condon 01:39
Yeah. Hi. Mark Condon, often called Condo within the company, and I’m happy for it to be called today. So Australians like to shorten everything, so I don’t think we can spell so that’s part of the problem. I’m the managing partner and founder called QuantumWork Advisory which is a workforce consulting company. We work in the TA, TM, service of procurement, contingent workforce, all those good things, space, HR, designing and implementing technology as well. So yeah, that’s me, 20 odd, 30 odd years getting old. So yeah, that’s my background.
Rebecca Warren 02:23
All right, we’re glad you’re here. Jig, tell us about yourself.
Jig Ramji 02:27
Hi everyone, really happy to be here. Jig Ramji, I have done a number of different things in my 20 plus career. But yeah, I’ve done chief talent officer roles for a number of organizations, such as Bloomberg, the London Stock Exchange group and Aviva. I’ve also been a chief people officer or regional head of HR or global head of HR for companies like Bloomberg and Fujitsu services. And I’ve also been a consultant for many years in human capital for an organization that I’m sure everyone’s very familiar with, Deloitte as well. And then I have lived and worked in many, many countries, very privileged to have worked in many, many countries, including, obviously the UK, where I am now, but also in the Netherlands, in Australia, in Singapore, in Hong Kong, and also a short stint in the US as well. So really pleased to be here and really excited about having a little bit of fun along the way. Yeah, I’ve got, I’ve got you covered on probably age. But I’ve also lived in Singapore, the US I’ve never lived in, actually, eight months picking apples in the UK and working in a bar until I was fired. But anyway, another story.
Rebecca Warren 03:37
It sounds like we’ve got lots of stories that we may have to either figure out how to fit them in, or maybe save for a future, future chat. So of the stories of where you’ve been and the things that you’ve done, I think that’s going to fit in really well to the topic that we have talking about connecting innovation and employees to business strategy and taking the jargon and the junk out of it. So before we get to that, I would love to have our panelists answer this question of the month. Okay, are you ready? Would you rather go on a five day road trip? I know it’s gonna be a long one, so we have to listen to five day road trip on a party bus with very extroverted and very strange strangers, or a five day staycation while watching six very active toddlers by yourself, of none of them, and none of them are your own. Okay? Does that make sense? Do we have that five day road trip, party bus, extroverted, strange strangers, five days or five day staycation while babysitting six very active toddlers, of which none of them are your own. What do we do? What do we do? Y’all, we have to make a choice.
Jig Ramji 04:49
This is a tough one. This is a really tough one. I mean, talk about extremities. Yeah, I think for me, I would go on the party bus fully, knowing that at points of the five day trip I’d be incredibly grumpy, but I’d probably just about go on the party bus.
Rebecca Warren 05:12
Okay, Jig’s on the party bus with extroverted and very strange strangers. What are we doing, Condo?
Mark Condon 05:19
Yeah, this is a tough one. I’ve got one child and five, seems a lot. And I think I’m going the bus. I think I’m going to go, I’m going to get hard on the bus for like, a day and a half, and then sleep the rest of it.
Rebecca Warren 06:16
I love it. I love it. Well, it’s always fun to have to try to figure out two really tough choices here, I think the party bus, well, with both of your very experiences and ability to talk to people, I think the party bus would be much easier. At least you could talk to some folks, the toddlers. I’m not sure that they’re going to care much about your 20 years of experience.
Mark Condon
Now, clearly, Now, clearly, I would want to know what you would do as well.
Rebecca Warren 06:52
Come on now, folks don’t normally turn it around on me. I just get to sail right into the questions. But honestly, I love kids. Our daughter just had twins. Loved seeing them, hanging out with them. There’s something about them being your own that’s different. I think if I were by myself with sick toddlers, none of us would be our best selves. So I’m hopping on the party bus with y’all.
Jig Ramji 07:16
Let’s go. We could all go together.
Rebecca Warren 07:20
Clearly, we can all go! All right, Sue. Who’s our producer? Sue? Can you make sure that you get a party bus planned for us? We can do some kind of webinar or podcast from the party bus. Let’s make that happen. Okay, all right, let’s jump in. As much as I want to continue to talk about party bus, we’re going to start cutting through the jargon. And so when we talk about strategy and innovation, sometimes we tend to get very comfortable in words that means something to us or that we have become very familiar with, and they stop bringing meaning to other folks. So we’re going to talk a little bit about first getting kicked off, about what, what does this jargon thing look like? Are we talking at folks instead of with them? Do we clearly explain what kind of things we’re talking about when we’re thinking about AI and business strategy? I know both of you have had to do a lot of that when you’re working with different teams, different clients. So we’re going to start talking first, and this is a fun way to kick it off. I think we’re going to talk a little bit about jargon. And so I would like to start off with you, giving me your short list of your most disliked or overused words or expressions in the business space. And then we’ll talk about, what do we replace them with? But what? What’s your short list of expressions that just give you the willy who wants to start?
Jig Ramji 08:58
I’m happy to go with a couple. So I think partly because it’s so overused and they don’t actually explain what they’re trying to achieve. I hate the word transformation. It’s become so overused and means no but you know what I mean? Transformation is transformation, transformation, and then the other one, I also think, is efficiency. And I think these words are used instead of actually the value that the organization is trying to derive from the solution. And I think it gives people an opportunity to use those words instead of actually expressing the outcome that they’re trying to get to, either for the organization or for the employees. So I think it’s a, it’s almost like a Get Out of Jail Free card, rather than anything else. But that’s why I don’t really love those expressions.
Mark Condon 09:54
I’m with you on the transformation. I think make it even better, digital transformation, you know, like it almost feels like an old term now, it’s kind of redundant, like it’s just transport. You might as well get rid of digital. It’s just a little change, right? The other one I’m having a problem with is skills based organization, I think because it gets people off the hook from actually talking about what the hell it is. And not that it’s a bad thing. It’s just people need to be storytellers before they put bumper stickers up and punch lines. And I just think, unfortunately, HR and Well, every department really loves, you know, one’s a little quick term, and thinks everyone understands what they’re talking about, but I can assure you, no one outside HR knows what you’re talking about. So that’s a problem, yeah, but the actual strategy is, is, is, is fine, like, that’s, that’s not a problem. It solves a big problem. But it’s, it’s actually solving a problem, not which is, you know, what skills do I need to set to work in this new world where AI is predominant? You know that that’s, that’s more the discussion. I think people go, we need to go to skills based organization. And they forgot the why? You just like, yeah, so then I agree with those.
Rebecca Warren 11:28
All right, well, I totally agree, even though I’m giving you a hard time because transformation isn’t my title, but I think what you’re both saying through those words, efficiency, digital transformation skills based organizations. I think what you said is right, like we tend to use those to kind of cover over what we’re really saying or not saying. They just tend to be filler words, and they tend to make us sound smart, but don’t necessarily get to the heart of what’s going on.
Jig Ramji 12:04
I was going to say as well, it doesn’t win hearts and minds. And, you know, Condo, right? So, you know, people don’t understand what you’re saying and and therefore you don’t win hearts and minds, and therefore you’re losing your most valuable asset, which is the sentiment of the people within your organization. And I think with everything that we’re trying to do is, and I think, as Mark rightly pointed out, there’s nothing wrong with the strategy and actually what we’re trying to achieve, but in order to achieve some of this stuff, you’ve got to win the hearts and minds and the sentiment of your people, and that’s what it stops us.
Mark Condon 12:34
I totally agree. The other one is you can’t have one talk track for everyone, and there’s no point going to a CFO and a CIO CEO and having the same conversation. You need to talk about what they want to understand at the moment. So while you may want to achieve, you know, transformational changes that benefit employees and better experiences more efficiently. You know, efficiency. You got to tell a story in a context that they understand and want to listen to. And I think sometimes we just skip over that and gets on the slide. So we just missed the whole story beforehand, that’s all.
Rebecca Warren 13:38
Yeah, I love that, and both of those things that you’re saying right, win the hearts and minds and do storytelling. All of those are about getting to what people are looking for, not necessarily what we’re saying. My husband came home one day from work, and I had said something to him, like, we’re over indexed on onions. And he looked at me, and he was like, Never say that again. But I didn’t even think about it. It didn’t even come to my mind, like, I just thought the first expression was over index, like, okay. So I think we do this a lot not just in our work life, but in our home life too. So how do we flip it and get to what we’re talking about the heart of the matter? What really matters? Instead of these big words that kind of talk over things, how are we looking at the replacement what? What kind of things should we be talking about, if we’re not talking about digital transformation and efficiency and alignment. What kind of things should we be using to really help folks in organizations understand what we’re trying to get at?
Jig Ramji 14:53
Yeah, I’ll give it a go. Yeah. I think one of the, one of the things that I think is a brilliant philosophy and it’s used so well in great organization is simplicity. And what I mean by that is, is there enough simplicity in how you either tell the story or articulate the value proposition? I’m not now using terrible words myself, sorry, but articulate the outcomes that you’re trying to get to in a way that is well understood by the vast majority of people that are your critical audience. I remember speaking to a really great senior leader within HR who worked in retail, and he had the he had an acid test, and he says, Would Dave from the Delhi counter be able to understand what you’re saying? And that simplicity then meant that if every single person within your organization truly understands why this is a great thing, what outcome you’re trying to get to, then you’re probably communicating it in the right way. If it becomes over indexed on corporate lingo, see what I did there, then you’re probably very nice. You’re probably doing yourself a disservice, because people aren’t going to fall in love with what is a pretty good design, a pretty good product, but you’re not allowing people to fall in love with it.
Mark Condon 16:24
Yeah, it’s a good point. I love that over index I once said I’m very bad at business bingo, because I am terrible at just those things. So my team actually played business consulting bingo with me once, where they all had cards, and whenever I said words like transformation or whatever, they yell out, bingo, so it’s business bingo and I just don’t giggle like school kids. But I actually once said to my daughter when she was about three years old, I think I need you to be more solutions focused.
Rebecca Warren 17:16
We do it all the time, right? Yeah, it comes out in all different ways. I think, Jig, I think I’m going to grab on to that. Dave from the deli counter. It’s the same thing. Like, I always think about when they tell you, what are you going to put in email, or what are you going to put in Slack? And if you don’t want it to be sent to your Grandma, don’t put it in there. It’s kind of that same message, right? Like, how do we think about it in simple terms? Because sometimes we may get wrapped up in our own heads too. Maybe we don’t even really know what we’re saying, right? Like, we use the buzz words, but we aren’t thinking about what that actually means to folks.
Jig Ramji 17:52
It’s a brilliant acid test. It’s a brilliant acid test. Honestly, it’s a brilliant acid test. And look the way, the way the world is at the moment you are, you are constantly bombarded with so much information, whether that’s in your personal life or whether that’s in your work life. You’ve got to appreciate that the capacity to constantly look at things and read things and consume them is tricky. So you know, simplicity is your winner here, because of what you want to say, and how you articulate it is straightforward and easy, easy to understand, you’re probably giving yourself the best possible chance.
Mark Condon 18:32
I think the other one is it’s got to be authentic. And I think, I think companies polish their language so much that it doesn’t mean anything anymore, and every company sounds the same, and it’s like it should be raw, it should be edgy, it should be more personal than I think communications departments, they do a good job, but what they’re trying to do is Make, get us to not make, not make mistakes to be honest, you know. And sometimes it’s polished so much that you don’t know who your leader is and what they think and what they feel. And that’s that’s a problem, I think, because then it’s like, well, I don’t know what who is my leader, and what do they actually see, okay?
Rebecca Warren 19:23
Yes, and I’m going to take that into another question to help folks then think about okay. So we know we’ve got a lot of words out there, and I have captured the right simplicity, authentic storytelling. All of that is great. Day the deli counter is going to be my new litmus test of, should I say this out loud or not? Right? And so how do we think about agentic AI or skills based development in the workplace, explaining it in a way that folks make sense? I mean, these are big concepts, and a lot of them are new and they could be scary. So how are we going to explain them inside of our organizations as talent leaders? How do we do that in a way that also takes out the fear and the misunderstanding or the concerns? And maybe we’ve already said it, maybe it is simple. Maybe it’s really working to win their hearts and minds and telling stories. But how should we be thinking about unpacking? There’s another one, unpacking some of these big concepts that feel almost unwieldy. What kind of things should talent leaders be doing as we’re thinking about telling these stories? Condo, what do you think?
Mark Condon 20:42
Yeah, I think on this one, over a couple of trains of thought come through my head. One is, I think, to say that technologies, since, you know, horses and buggies and cars, is a part of being human like it’s just another technology shift, and it is profound. And at every stage in humanity, have they looked at and gone, What does trains mean to humanity, and what does planes mean and cars and internet? Yes, this is potentially one of the biggest, probably is the biggest. But humanity has survived and the world has adapted, you know. So I think the world goes on and everyone will be okay, one way the other. I think as a sort of that look the world’s not going to and calm people down a little bit. And the other thing with agentic and AI is, look, AI Gen. AI is the next best guess. Let’s be clear, that’s just all it is next best guess. It just helps me be very good at it, and getting better by the day. And agentic is able to do next best guess several times within its own world and come up with a solution. It’s probably as good as a human or better. I mean, it’s able to exchange information between ourselves, whether it’s, you know, a Gen AI to agentic and automation, and do a procedure together. So I think we just got to break it down and make it more real and stop using words like agentic and Gen AI. Just say, what’s the problem? What’s the technology trying to solve? But that was just my high level thoughts. Is the world’s going to not end. These technologies are profound, potentially and potentially, they will make our world a lot better. Yes, there will be change. They’re just, they’re just truths. You know, you know the world will be okay. You’ll be okay. Yeah, I think, what do you think?
Jig Ramji 22:51
I do think that just picking up on the last piece, this will, this will impact our lives, not just from a work perspective, but it will impact our lives from a personal perspective. So these are trends that will truly see impact across the broader ecosystem that every individual is in right? So I think there’s an opportunity for organizations to help its people navigate what this means and provide better objective understanding of the opportunity. I still see so much tabloid-esque commentary around both these concepts, and I do think there’s an opportunity for organizations, talent, professionals, leaders, to almost do a bit of myth busting. I think Mark’s absolutely spot on right. These things are going to happen. These things are providing opportunity. There is a wealth of opportunity out there, if we get it right. And actually, as an individual, whether it’s from a work or personal context, it can significantly augment your personal capability and your personal lives if you understand it and utilize it to its best of its ability. Whereas there is also a huge risk if people don’t do this and organizations don’t help their people to I’m going to use a very classic terminology, but almost re skill against this opportunity, then that fear of it just causes people to actually, rather than embrace it, to actually run away from it. And I think that’s the biggest issue that we have. You’ve got, you’ll always have early adopters and those who will be excited by innovation, technology, innovation and technology opportunity and those that fear it, I think this is here to stay. This is a huge, seminal moment, and there’s been many. So this is not the first time, as Condo rightly pointed out, but help your people to embrace it in the right way, because it’s going to lead to productivity gains, both from a personal perspective. Personal perspective and an organizational perspective. The worst thing people can do is bury their head under the sand.
Mark Condon 25:09
I think that’s totally wrong. I think if you, if you try and play it safe, you’re already in trouble. You have to be on the front foot. You have to be, you know, lean in. You have to say, how can I make this work for me in a positive way? If you, if you, I worry that some people think it’s like global warming and it’s too big to do anything about. Say, well, at least, at least start somewhere and put your garbage, you’re doing your recycling and recycling, you know, just start somewhere, do your bit. And I think with AI, it’s like, do a course on AI, read about it. You know, understand that, embrace it.
Rebecca Warren 26:07
It’s great. Well, I think that’s, I think that’s right. And a lot of things that we’re hearing from customers, we’re hearing from prospects, hearing in future, futuristic leaders, they’re saying that trust and transparency are the two key things to moving forward right. Employees need to be able to trust that their leaders have their best interest in mind, whether they’re using jargon or not, right? They are doing the right thing for me as an employee, and that transparency and that honesty that you talked about, we may not know where we’re going down the road, right? I like what you said, condo about next best guess, right? Like we’re all trying to figure it out, and there’s no more five year plans now we’re thinking maybe six months, maybe a year, and we don’t know if that’s going to happen. So another buzzword, right? Agility. But how do we stay flexible? How are we thinking about whether we’re going to be honest with you and say we’re not sure what the next five years look like, but we’re in it with you. We’re going to do this together. We’re going to be as transparent as possible to make sure that everybody feels like at least they’re working towards the same goal. I know that was always a struggle for me when I was working in organizations. If I didn’t understand where the company was going, it was less motivating to actually do my job. So I think that trust, that transparency, that honesty, what’s Dave at the deli counter going to think about this? I think that’s the right way to think about it. So this has been, this has been great. So let’s take that to that next question about tech, right? And so maybe it is. We stopped saying agent, take AI. Maybe it’s just tech. I don’t know. Maybe that’s too loose of a word. But how can talent teams start thinking about new tech, vetting new tech, thinking about it through the employee experience. I think in the past, maybe it’s been, ooh, bright, shiny, and we’re going to put this in, and our folks are going to love it, but we don’t actually ask them, and then they don’t want to use the tech. And now we spent an awful lot of money on something that nobody has actually invested in. So how do talent teams vet new tech with the employee experience in mind?
Mark Condon 28:19
I’m going to go there. So I’m obsessed with design thinking methodologies and the reason being is it forces everyone in the group to have a common language and a methodology around understanding the user as a key principle in the model. And I think, in the past, technology, for all its benefits, have gone down a systems integration sort of pathway, like the technologies chosen we are now implementing. And it’s like and what they really are saying is people are really complicated and they’re getting in the way of implementing the technology. And then they say, no one’s using it. It’s their fault. You know, that’s, that’s, that was the mindset. I think now it’s going to be, and I think great companies do this really well. It’s like, how does what, what problems are we solving? And trying to line the technology up to those key problems so that could be, you know, what problem are we solving? Could be it. It takes too much time to do this. And I think getting that buy in from your stakeholder group is really critical, because then you just say, All right, here’s your 5050, critical points, or friction points for the journey. We’re going to take care of them, piece by piece, one by one, and we’re going to snuff them out. And do you want to do that absolutely? They’re absolutely on board. And then we go, Well, this is how we’re going to do with this type of technology. And they’ve got a reference point for why you’re doing what you’re doing. And then you obviously have other benefits, which is, it’s more efficient, it’s faster, lowers costs, etc. So I think you there are different personas that you have to appeal to, and something’s got to be in it for each of them. You know, there’s a weapon for everyone. So, yeah, probably gone a bit long there, but you can explain with them.
Rebecca Warren 30:16
You just gave us a jargon, sir.
Mark Condon 30:22
Sorry, what’s in it? For me, I mean, fundamentals of change management.
Rebecca Warren 30:30
Sorry, this is going to be, oh, it’s so funny how we do that. And I agree with you. I totally agree with you. Jig. What do you have to say on that?
Jig Ramji 30:40
It’s an interesting one. If you know, going back to condos, point around the next best guess. And the opportunity that the advancement in, I’m going to call it, technology, has provided us is that, you know, the real opportunity here is it can kind of shrink timelines that were previously in existence to achieve a solution. So if you kind of think about the opportunity, the opportunities to do quick tests, to be iterative, to reduce timelines in favor of much more agile and trial based iterative, iterative processes. What an opportunity, because it allows you to move forward at pace. And that’s, that’s what this is about, really. This is about, I’m going to use a word that I hate, efficiency in terms of maximizing resources, maximizing your investment decisions. So that’s what I think this does for you. This gives you such a it almost puts the A in agile in a way that I don’t think we’ve had in the past.
Mark Condon 31:50
I’ve just come up with the phrase while you’re talking, and I’ve been trying to do a certain thing with AI, and then something else will come up, and I’ll go, that’s magnificent. So here’s the phrase collateral innovation, never before seen as two words, but collateral innovation, I don’t think that’s been used before. It’s just so much if you’re agile, you can find nuggets everywhere, yeah, more than what you were seeking.
Jig Ramji 32:26
You are so right, by the way, with the comment that you made earlier around it used to be about technology implementation that was, quite frankly, quite laborious, and in many, many cases, showcasing or utilizing very old tech stacks and tech tools. What an opportunity to kind of not go into the next generation, but actually the in a way, to move the tech stack within HR or people function to a place that it’s never been before.
Rebecca Warren 33:01
And that’s exactly where I was. So when we think about that collateral innovation, however, we’re thinking about like, how do we make sure? And kind of you were talking about this, right? Keep the key user in the center, and so jig Exactly. We can’t implement tech for tech sake. This is cool, bright, shiny. Let’s put it in. It’s gonna, it’s gonna solve the world’s problems. We’ve got to focus on what those problems are, right? What are those friction points? But I think where, maybe sometimes, and I feel like this gets missed, is that we’ve got leaders, purse holders. However, we want to say that the folks with the money-making decisions without actually checking with the key user. So how do we make sure the right people are at the table when those either friction points are being discussed or technology is on the table, right? Is it? You know Rena Hellstrom, and I hope I’m saying her name right? I think it’s Rena talks about and she has a podcast in a book that she just wrote about agile HR. And it’s, how do we move faster, right? How are we thinking in pods of work and gigs and projects, as opposed to the work of HR? So how are we thinking about it in smaller, bite sized pieces? How do we pull the right people in to help make sure that we’re thinking about the right things. Because I will say honestly, even if we have trust and transparency, if everybody at the top is making the decisions for everybody at the bottom, I’m not sure that’s the best way to get everybody involved. So what do you think about that? How do we get the right people helping to make those tech decisions?
Jig Ramji 34:40
I think historically, I’m not sure we’ve, we’ve had the right capability, that’s it, have sat within our teams to truly evaluate what the solution was. I mean, again, not to come back to the point that condo made, but the role before, and maybe this is a bit unfair, was almost a sense of this is an implementation role, and it was a tech implementation role, but that was the definition of what your tech capability was. That’s that in your team, actually what you need within your team is probably capability to evaluate the quality of the tech solution before you even go into implementation. We’ve not historically had that before. And I think what an opportunity to actually have people that truly understand technology, because there is a convergence now within most functions and most teams, whereby, if it’s the people, function is people, and tech, it just, it’s just a natural evolution of what the function needs to be. And then I guess the other piece around it is, yes, you need true advisors and evaluators on your tech solution and what the tech can do, but let’s not forget the user experience or the employee experience. What are we trying to do? Does this actually marry up to how that employee would experience the solution? There is no doubt in my mind that we as consumers of technology now have very little patience with poor user experiences. As I always say, I didn’t particularly like buying some of the products that I buy on Amazon Prime, but it makes them mundane, quite interesting, the way they actually have as a user interface, I don’t even ever think about what I’m watching next, because Netflix tells me that I probably will like something versus not like something. Spotify helps me to find new artists and artists that they think I’d like based on the data points they’ve collected on me, but they’re all seamless user experiences, and I’ve embraced them without really thinking about it. There is no reason why that sense shouldn’t also be present in how an employee or person within an organization experiences their technology as well.
Mark Condon 36:53
I feel like the business we’ve tolerated very poor consumer experiences in a work environment, yeah, and I’m not quite sure why, because if you had the choice as a consumer, you would not go back, but because you’re trapped in an employment they’ve got a monopoly on you, or an oligopoly, they don’t try very hard. So I think there’s, there’s this new revolution of technologies that are seeking to really address those friction points and issues and make it a great seamless experience, and make it a great consumer grade experience, because it should be, you know. So I think that’s the exciting thing about the next couple of years is and already, some companies are already doing this really well and have got a mindset around it, but it shouldn’t be. Here’s a piece of technology. Boy, aren’t you using it? That’s your fault. It should be. You’re not using it for a reason. How can we improve it? Because we’re not obviously solving the problem, so it’s a virtual mindset.
Rebecca Warren 38:04
So yes, and I think the way tech is, it’s not just pieces that are being implemented here, right? Tech is almost the foundation, and we’re doing the work through the tech. It becomes less of a bright, shiny and more of a day to day. So if we’re putting in the right tech, if we are the right people, we’re having the right conversations, what signals should we be looking for that indicate employees are not only using the tech, but benefiting from it? So what kind of things should we be looking for to indicate that employees are doing the things that we expect and benefiting from it, right? Is it feedback, performance, outcome data, like, what are we looking at to understand that we’re going in the right direction?
Mark Condon 38:55
I’m going to be brief, Jig, on this and hand it to you, but I’m going to take one example. So if the client example is we want to have more mobility, to create more agility for people to embrace Skilling and re skilling. So what you do is you measure mobility velocity as a sea level statistic. One of the Swiss banks measured this a few years ago, and they made a huge priority, which was, how many times do people move within the company? And they knew that if people moved the business was healthy and vibrant, because people were taking control of their careers, there’s just that. So I think those are the kind of statistics you need to look at. It means they’re looking at marketplaces. They’re taking control of their career. They’re developing themselves. They’re getting promoted. They’re moving laterally or upwards. There’s just that. And that’s sort of your health, you know, is the plant still alive? Sort of thing. Is it still growing? That type of thing, the geo two?
Jig Ramji 40:07
Yeah, look, I think that’s a really good example. And actually it’s a principle that can be applied across different technologies. But you know, if there is enough capability to evaluate analytics around how much time people are spending on certain technology or sites and so forth. So if a talent Marketplace is a good example, I think if people are accessing it, not just once, but multiple times, then it’s doing its job. There’ll be parameters by which you can start to understand whether the technology is enabling the behavioral change that you want, versus analytics that perhaps suggests that the technology was sought after, but people aren’t coming back because the experience wasn’t good enough as an example. So I think as you start to, as you start to put new things into play, I think there’s a real opportunity for organizations and leaders to set some parameters around what success looks like when it comes to data points and constantly evaluate that. And you talked about feedback. The thing that scares me more than anything else is when something new happens and you’re getting no feedback, that’s probably the worst, worst case scenario, because you can’t get it right all the time, you will constantly make mistakes. You want to evolve things. You want to make it better. And so actually getting that feedback and getting people excited or even frustrated with what you’ve done is a good sign, because they want it to be better.
Rebecca Warren 41:37
Yeah, I love that thinking.
Mark Condon 41:41
I think in HR, because HR is going to change so much in technology, you basically need somebody full time looking at change and adoption and monitoring that, and then putting in changes to say they’re not really going for it, or they are, you know, the team not going aren’t really using it. Let’s address that and double dip, because at the moment, a lot of technology goes in, and after six months, people say they haven’t logged in, so it’s a bit late. That’s pretty expensive.
Rebecca Warren 42:15
I think we’re all on the same track and thinking about so what I continue to hear through what you’re saying is not get lost in the sauce, right? Don’t get stuck in the weeds. I continue to hear you talking about, what are the outcomes, what are the problems we’re solving? It’s not about doing this linear work, but it’s continuing to tie it back to what’s important to the business. And again, that goes back to trust and transparency. If your employees don’t know what your business is trying to accomplish, it’s really hard for them to feel like they’re part of that solution. So I really like that thinking about, what are the outcomes? What’s that impact? Right? Like, if there was a way to say, my role not just in sales, but Right, like, maybe in talent acquisition, how is that impacting revenue, right? What are those downstream things of saying, Hey, we’ve got somebody like, I am not a fan of our ATS metrics of time to fill. And you know, some of those pieces. But if we take that to the next level, what are those success criteria? I think one of you had said that, what’s that success criteria of? Because we reduced our time to fill we, you know, increased somebody’s ability to add value, you know, by x, or they were able to impact these, these particular objectives faster. Like tying that success criteria, what do you expect it to accomplish? And maybe letting folks figure out what that path looks like themselves, right? Like, I don’t want to be told how to do my job every day. I want you to say, hey, I need you to do this. I say, okay, and if I need help, I’m going to reach out to the right people, right, whether it’s my manager or other folks on the team. But how do we continue then to focus on the outcomes and trust people to do the work.
Jig Ramji 44:06
One of the things that I do think, just to add comment to that, is, I think there has to be an element of humility when you are trying to achieve, you know, a significant change from a technology perspective. I think you need that humility, because it is very difficult to get a first time solution, absolutely, categorically perfect. And I think when you pour your heart and soul into something, and look, it’s happened to me, you pour your heart and soul into something, and you get close to launch, and you’re about to put it into an organization, and you’re super excited. You’ve worked your butt off. And you know, you’re hoping for one thing, and one thing only, is positive affirmation that this is going to impact and change people’s lives for the better, because that’s why we do what we do. But, you know, I’ve been in a situation where, when I did something it was centered around leadership, I got so much feedback that the user experience was terrible.
Rebecca Warren 45:14
It’s terrible. How lovely.
Jig Ramji 45:16
And candidly, it probably wasn’t as good as it could be, right? And when you’re so vested in something you know everything inside out that it’s difficult for you to sometimes objectively see some of the challenges that may exist. And looking at that, it led to a revamp of our technology solution six months later. So we pulled it and almost made those changes the first few weeks of that happening, I categorically felt completely gutted around the fact that even though the team had put their heart and soul into it, it wasn’t quite ready. However, when we relaunch with the changes and the support from our employee, sorry, our marketing user experience team, the solution was 500 times better as a result of it. So six month delay gutted, but the solution thereafter was incredible, with high utilization, recurring visits, and that positive affirmation and feedback that we saw the first time around. But you need that humility, because when you pour your heart and soul into it, whether that’s within the organization, whether as a consultancy, it’s hard, it’s tough.
Mark Condon 46:33
So Jig, do you think there’s, there’s a bit of a model problem? Maybe I will change it, because I think it’s going to be continual, like it’s just going to be a continual process, but it seemed to be, technology would have a pretty firm end date to the launch, and then there’d be some type of care, and then, then you go to business as usual. We’ll probably just go into business as usual way too quickly, and underestimating the fact that maybe the technology is not perfect. People aren’t continually perfectly trained and basically a fairy tale version of reality, which most companies convince themselves off, and then they blame the end user, and say, what’s their fault?
Jig Ramji 47:21
But let’s use your let’s use but let’s use your language, collateral innovation, collateral change, collateral agility. And talk about this as just continuous iteration and agility in a way that it doesn’t feel like that drop off point in pain. It’s just continuous. And I think the structure of how we have almost, in the past, addressed work, and the traditional work structures have almost led to this, I guess, slightly fake way of doing things, or a way that is unrealistic. And hopefully with the advances and around technology, our mindsets can also be a little bit more agile and iterative, and therefore we can be more successful.
Mark Condon 48:06
Rather than when I make collateral innovation, I think it’s like you purposely go to solve something, and then you find five things. A good example would be Post-It notes, right? Post-It notes where the glue was actually collateral innovation. They didn’t mean to make glue that doesn’t stick. I put three and put it on the shelf somewhere, and said, Oh, we’ve got glue that doesn’t glue. And then somebody said, oh, let’s put on some paper. And there you go. So it’s all like, yeah, like, collateral rewrite.
Jig Ramji 48:44
That’s a great example, actually, a great unintended innovation.
Rebecca Warren 48:52
That’s where Wheaties came from, too. It was somebody who had spilled some porridge on the stove and it curled up into a Wheaties flake, and that’s how Wheaties got started. So okay, I’m watching the time y’all this is going so fast, and I’ve got like 8 million questions that we’re not going to get to. So we might need, like, a whole series with you for the next like, I don’t know, a couple of years, but so one of the questions I want to ask that tied to all the things that you were just saying, is, so let’s get tactical, right? So what role should direct managers play in connecting the tech, the skills programs? How should direct managers help connect the dots, right? Like, how do we equip them to have those future focused growth centers, growth centered conversations, rather than super tactical, task focused ones. How do we shift that? In light of what’s coming with agentic AI, with the changes, with continual changes, we can’t just have managers doing the Hey, check off the tasks for the week. How do we shift that conversation for those frontline managers?
Jig Ramji 50:05
I think, I think we’ve, I think this is a nice question, almost to bring it together. This isn’t it really because I think we started with that real essence of what, what are we trying to do? What are the outcomes that we’re trying to get to co-created, often with a broader set of people, rather than top down from certain parts of the organization or senior leaders. You know, this is a co-created solution that gets the right outcomes on behalf of the organization. You get that right, you galvanize people behind that vision, and you galvanize people behind the outcome, and then automatically, I think people feel connected to what you’re trying to do. And therefore, I think leaders, line managers, however you want to describe, people will naturally want to support the implementation and execution of solutions such as, you know, skills based workforce or skills taxonomy, work or career frameworks, and all of those great things that we hear quite a lot about, I think, where it doesn’t work is, is a solution in isolation, ready for deployment. Deployment happens? Manager line leaders get sent talking notes, and then all of a sudden they’re expected to own the solution without really feeling part of the process in the first place. And then you’ve not won their hearts and minds, and then you’re expecting them to win the hearts and minds of their people. So I think that, again, is a really nice way of almost revisiting what we said beforehand, which is, you know, the collateral innovation and the collateral support for any of our solutions is going to come if you open your doors earlier than you know, day of deployment.
Mark Condon 51:57
I love that. I think where companies often make a mistake is when they create a solution, looking for a problem, as opposed to understanding a problem and identifying a solution. And the difference is, if you’re pushing it at people versus, you know, understanding what the key issues are. It just gets embraced a lot easier. And you can say, well, we heard you. These are the key issues you want resolved. These are your priorities. We’ve identified technology. This is how it’s going to address those issues. Let us work together on how we make that work, as opposed to, you didn’t even ask for it. Here it is. It’s like, you know, who’s that person in the room? You know, that’s the elephant. You know? Yeah, pleased to meet you, Miss., Mr. Elephant. But you know why you’re here, you know, like, you probably wanted to know that there was an awful kind of join you in the room. But I think hiring managers and all leaders get trapped between executives and the employees, and they’re like, befuddled on how to fix it. Also, I think they don’t know the answers, and I think it’s okay to train them and say, Look, you’re not going to open the answers. We’re going to give you a framework, maybe it’s written, design thinking or so forth, how to talk to people, how to make sure this all glues together and get people productive, so they don’t run off doing weird things and panicking, you know. So that would be more sort of you give people a framework so people can actually understand the change management together.
Rebecca Warren 53:47
I like that. I like the idea of the framework. It goes back to what I was saying too. Like, hey, tell me where we need to go, and then we can figure out there may be different paths. My brain is not like somebody else’s brain, and the way I may think about it may be different. And that’s okay, as long as we get to the right end result, right? What do success criteria look like? And I think it’s also pulling into what you talked about, that continuous feedback, right? It’s not a bad thing, right? We we joke about it here. We say we say feedback is a gift, and that sounds so cheesy, but I think if we don’t get that, if we don’t have that loop of somebody feeling comfortable to say, Hey, have you thought about or maybe this way, right? Like, how do we take out, Jake, that goes back to your humility too, right? Like, how do we take out our personal, you know, ego? How do we take our ego out of it and take out our personal feelings and say, Okay, I appreciate that. And then we get to decide, do we add that into the next iteration, and how do we take that feedback? But I think that that is that same transparency piece where folks feel comfortable to do that. We need to make sure that there are those open feedback loops for folks to be able to say, Hey, I love this or I don’t like I really wish on the backpack that I carry every day, I wish there was a place for me to say I love this backpack, but there are two things I want nobody asked for my feedback. But man, if you would just take that, that would take this backpack from 95% to 100% How do we continue to keep that open to make sure that folks are feeling comfortable, and even if it’s not perfect, right? I think that’s where we also have to go in. We have to go in with the idea that we are never going to have that certainty, we’re not going to have that perfection, but let’s get clarity in the moment of what we’re trying to solve for and then continue to work towards that. So I’m watching the time. Any any last thoughts on that, and then I’ve got one last closing question about what your number one takeaway is, any other thoughts that we should wrap up? Seriously? Y’all, I have, like, so many more questions. There’s so many more places we can go. It feels like we just started. But how do we wrap this up in a big, bright, shiny, jargon, less bow before I ask you your one last takeaway question?
Mark Condon 55:56
I think we’ve covered it well. I think what we’ve said is, you know, leave your ego at the door. No one’s expecting you to know all the answers as a leader or as an employee and be comfortable with the uncertainty and explore it. But I think what we do need everyone to do is you need to be explorers. You can’t play it safe, because this is a bad time to play it safe. This is like, I’m only going to make buggy whips. Well, buggy whips used to be a good industry, but it’s not right now.
Rebecca Warren 56:32
So I don’t need a buggy whip. I’m pretty sure that’s Condo’s advice. Jig, anything that you wanted to add to that?
Jig Ramji 56:48
I think the curious piece, be curious, be inquisitive. I think there’s a great opportunity, but let’s not lose our superpower, right? Technology is advancing at a rapid rate, and I know that’s a bit cliched, but our superpower is turning that advancement into great outcomes for our people. That’s what, that’s what I would continue to advocate for. We can do something to create amazing outcomes and use technology to augment them. That’s, that’s what this is all about.
Rebecca Warren 57:19
I love that. Okay, so Condo, I mean, I think we’ve summed it all up that I think you’ve already given the that that answer, though, the explorers can’t play it safe. Jig can be curious and inquisitive and make sure that we’re using our superpower to turn tech into advancements and great outcome. So if so is that where we should leave this right? Like, if, if folks could walk away from this webinar doing one thing, I already think you said that right, be curious. Use your superpower. Don’t forget where you’re trying to go and play around. You all said that. And I think that’s that explorer piece. But play around with the tech, if you can get into it, that takes away some of the fear, right? If you are able to take away that trepidation by being able to get into it and play with it and test it out and learn from it. And you know, I think I love my ChatGPT partner. I call him chaos goblin. CG, we have conversations every day. You know, I was a little hesitant when I first started, and now I feel like I have a new friend, and that’s weird. But any other things that we want to close with, I know we’re right at times, but any other last thoughts?
Mark Condon 58:35
Be positive. Be playful, which is probably a bit further than playing around with it. Just be playful with it. It’s pretty fun. I enjoy it.
Jig Ramji 58:47
Yeah, that’s great. And I think for me, it’s an amazing time to be the leader in an organization, because this is where I think that convergence of people in tech is so heightened. What a brilliant time for people, talent, HR, practitioners, to be leading this revolution.
Rebecca Warren 59:07
All right, y’all stay curious. Be explorers. Trust and transparency. We’ve got all kinds of words. I’m going to sum this up in a LinkedIn post that’s going to come out by the end of the day tomorrow. So take a look and see all of the little nuggets. Jig and Condo, thank you so much for your time. This was amazing looking forward to having future conversations with you all. Be safe. Y’all have a great rest of your day and we’ll see you soon from the Talent Table.
