Rebecca Warren 00:00
I am Rebecca Warren, your host. I have two fabulous guests, Dr. Patty, Fletcher and Matt Alder, joining me, and I’m super excited about our conversation. Today we’re going to be talking about trends carrying over from 2024 what might pop up in 2025 strategies for shifting organizational priorities, market demand, elevating the employee experience, engagement and development, and probably a few other things. So, I’m super excited for our conversation today. I’m going to ask each of our guests to introduce themselves. We’ll start with Dr. Patty and then go on over to Matt. Awesome.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 01:19
Good morning, and thanks for having me. I’m Dr Patty Fletcher. I am the chief strategy and practice Officer at Talentline. We are a professional services organization that offers expert HCM transformation advisory. We are an implementation partner with Eightfold and offer managed services to fill those skill gaps that some companies have. I’ve been in this industry, that the work, tech, HR, tech industry, for over 25 years, and really cut my teeth at SAP and every you know, kind of iteration, bringing people from the manual to on-prem, on-prem to SaaS, after we figured out we could get data from a machine that would tell us stuff. And then left for a few years, came back and was its Success Factors. I really grew there and went on into other areas of tech. We are human rights, all about gratitude. And then limeade, before it was purchased by WebMD, which is really in the health and well-being space, so it pretty well-rounded. My PhD is in organizational leadership, my expertise is in gender equity, and I’m a leadership futurist. I could talk about this topic day and night. Just ask anyone who knows me, so never invite me to a cocktail party because that’s all
Rebecca Warren 02:40
I want to be at that cocktail party. Dr. Fauci, I tell you, I would love to learn from the things that you had to say. I am so glad you’re here.
Matt Alder 02:52
Hi everyone. Thanks very much for having me on the webinar. A pleasure to be here again, also one of my favorite topics. So I think it’s going to be a super interesting conversation. I’m Matt Alder. I produce and host the Recruiting Future podcast, which will be 10 years old next month. So, you know, kind of very well established. Two weekly episodes talk to lots of people about the future of recruiting and HR the rest of the rest of the time. I’ve written two books about talent, and I commentate and analyze and look at the the future of talent, talent acquisition, and HR. And in all the kind of years that I’ve been working in this industry, and I’ve stopped counting how long that is, I’ve never known a more fascinating time than the time we’re in at the moment.
Rebecca Warren 03:53
So as we do every Talent Table, I throw out kind of a random question to our guests and get their feedback just to start us off. So when we were doing our prep call, we were talking about, I don’t know how we got on to hot cocoa, but we did. And we were talking about hot cocoa from Hotel chocolate in the UK, and I’m counting down the days now until I get there to experience my cup myself, I’ll be in Glasgow at 161 days. So my question on the drink topic, I am a huge fan of sparkling water, and my current favorite is Ginger Tangerine from Topo Chico. So good. Y’all. However, my husband is not a fan, so we have this debate that goes back and forth. So my question to you, too is and Matt, we’ll start with you. Is sparkling water a refreshing, bubbly delight, or is it an overrated, fizzy letdown?
Matt Alder 04:58
Well, I think that there’s two ways of looking at this. I think logically, it’s water with a few bubbles, which isn’t really that exciting, if you think about it. I think there are probably more exciting things you can do with water, however, on an emotional and marketing level, you know, when it’s packaged as being hand dug out of an aquifer and chalk hills and, you know, carbonated through some elongated process, then I think that actually improves the taste. So, yes, but with that caveat that logically probably doesn’t make as much sense,
Rebecca Warren 05:33
I love that. So it’s all about the marketing.
Matt Alder 05:38
From what I hear, I think it makes you taste different in your brain.
05:42
Dr, Patty, what do you think?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 05:44
I love that, Matt, I feel like you just saw right through me. I, you know, have been CMO in a few different companies. So the worst thing about me is I get fooled every time. And I see I’m a sucker for every Instagram ad out there, and if they’re like drilling to get my water, I know it’s meant just for me. So here’s the deal. I’m a purist. I do not like flavoring in my water. I think that’s just not my jam. But to answer your question, so SAP used to have these bottles. I’m sure they still do in their HQ. They’re big ones, small ones, and it’s like the most amazing fizzy water. It doesn’t quench my thirst, but there’s just something really elevated and sophisticated drinking it, that it refreshes my sense of being, yeah. I love that, all right? I like it, but I chug still water for the thirst quenching.
Rebecca Warren 06:38
Okay, so I have two team sparkling waters. Can I tell my husband that?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 06:43
Yes, not for me.
Rebecca Warren 06:46
Here is what I’m working on. My Costco Italian sparkling mineral water right here. So I absolutely have have a point of view on that. So all right, thanks for that. So now that we’ve talked about fizzy water, and it is a bubbling, refreshing drink. Now we’re going to talk about the HR landscape, which is bubbling and sometimes refreshing, maybe sometimes not so much. So our HR landscape is evolving faster than ever. Matt you, I think hits the nail in the head that this is going to be a super interesting year. So as we step into this new year, we all have questions, are we keeping up? Can we keep up? What are we keeping up with? What’s actually happening? So between shifting organizational priorities, emerging tech, ever changing needs of people, there’s an awful lot for us to navigate, and that’s what we’re here to today to talk about. So we’re going to talk about trends, surprises, strategies, engagement, development and data driven decision making. So if you have questions, feel free to throw them in the Q and A, and we will see what we can do to get those answers. So as we think about 2024 brought some pretty significant shifts in the way that we work, and establish some ways of working that hadn’t been in our area for for very long, but from the rise of AI driven talent strategies to evolving workforce expectations around flexibility, well being and career growth. Now, as we step into 2025 many of these trends aren’t just continuing, but they are actually accelerating. So what major trends are we going to see from 2024 that we think will keep shaping industries in 2025 so I’m not sure who I think you both have ideas on that. I’m not sure who wants to kick us off, but what’s going to carry over from 2024 to 2025 to keep us moving forward?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 08:41
Matt, what do you think? You know? First, I just want to say that the I have no idea, right? So what we’ll talk about here are, quite frankly, guesses. And you know, I think it’s what’s really been interesting over the last few years is we used to think we could predict a lot, right? We knew it was coming in the year, only to find out the pungents were usually wrong. It’s almost as if we are now smacked in the face where we don’t really know what’s going to happen. And the truth is, we never did. We were just fooling ourselves. So but here’s the thing that we have to remember, the role of HR hasn’t changed. We have to bring in the right people to do the right kind of work, make sure they can do the right kind of work, keep the people who are the top talent right be able to have all of those things surrounding people, in order to go move from the whole concept of productivity, efficiency and all of that that doesn’t go away, but to impact that hasn’t changed. It’s the how it happens that changes. So of course, the major trend is AI, right? We know that, but I argue and say, Is it or is it data? It’s really, truly about the data. Algorithms are algorithms, and we do have concerns there biases and all of that stuff. But, you know, and when this kind of first started, when I was in the early days of SAP and putting in these on-prem systems, and my God, when we came out with self-service for managers and employees because in the old days, it was only power users, I would get a lot of flack from folks. You’re going to take away people’s jobs because machines are going to replace it. Welcome to every industrial revolution we’ve ever had. Now AI, it is so different, and companies, and I would say HR, is still struggling to move beyond that efficiency play and more into the effectiveness and equity play, right, the impacting play. And so when now it’s AI is going to replace my job, and I’m here to say, No, it’s the people who can use it. We know that employers are no different. Employers will be replaced by employers who know how to use AI. So I think that’s going to be, you know, still the big thing. And, you know, reading Matt and I, we swim in the same circles, right? And we read kind of the same people. We we think a lot of the same things, and it’s hard to disagree with anything. I was reading something from my friend Meg bear, who Matt you you probably know who she is. And there’s a lot of talk around the governance piece. There has to be governance around AI, but particularly data, there’s a big mistrust. We’ve seen, you know, some, some kind of different changes that companies are taking. We are in a highly unregulated industry in the US. On this one, it’s, it’s not a lot of protection. So her caution was to tread lightly. I’m not seeing enough of the governance components cross, cross company kind of governance around ethical AI and in data, and that has to be something that is done, and again, bringing the bigger data thing. But of course, there’s the use cases, right that were all all around the upskilling, the RE skilling the workforce alongside AI. I grew up at a time that you did as well. And so to do Rebecca work was becoming increasingly difficult, and now we no longer do separate tech from process. It is really difficult now to separate the transformation that has to happen in the company from AI and data. It’s virtually impossible, right? So over time, you can’t really separate the artificial or augmented intelligence from the human impacting component. And so I think we’re going to continue to go down that route. There are a few others that we can hit, but I think I’d like to stop there and hear what Matt has to say.
Matt Alder 12:36
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I kind of agree with, I agree with everything you kind of said there. I think that to kind of come back to the first bit about making predictions 100% we can’t future. We don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, and I think that the last few years have made that even more, even more apparent. I think the thing to say, though, is we can’t predict the future, but we can shape it and have a vision for it and move toward that. I think one of the one of the things that I’ve kind of noticed, particularly over the last 1824, months, as AI, has kind of dominated and literally got better every week in ways that are, I think a bit used to it now, but in ways that are just amazing. Think about it, and there is a little bit of a sense I get around our industry of this kind of this kind of managed helplessness. It’s like we don’t know what’s going to happen. We need to wait see that. And I think that the individuals and the companies that are going to thrive this year are the ones who, you know, create that vision and help shape that future. Because, yes, this is, this is very scary. Lots of things that we’re used to, lots of normals that we have on there anymore, but that opens up an opportunity to really kind of shape the future. So I think that’s the that’s the kind of the thing that I want to say to kind of underpin sort of everything, really. And then from there, I think that the, you know, again, sort of sticking with AI, the progress is just kind of incredible, and it just has to be kind of front of the center of it, in terms of the way people think about things. But you’re absolutely right in terms of those complications around government, governance and ethics, and regulation and legislation, and you know, that is a consideration. And I think we need a broader discussion about that, particularly around ethics, whereas when it’s discussed, it tends, tends to be discussed in terms of, you know, current legislation, that’s kind of there. So I think that’s a, you know, that is a big, big, big topic, the automation side of all of this. I think that automation is just going to be a, kind of a vast thing. And the way that AI can tie data together to be able to do that, it’s kind of a real, it’s a real game changing thing. And I think that it’s not just about how the existing way that we do things is automated. It’s actually about thinking about doing things in a completely different way, because that’s what this sort of technology allows us to allows us to do. So I think that’s the, you know, a big part of the thinking around the AI piece. And then from a, you know, from a skills perspective, you know, I think this is going to be, it’s going to kind of be fascinating, because skills going out of date even more quickly, you know, huge conversations about, you know, soft skills and development and all this kind of stuff. So I think this will be the year where perhaps we get a little bit more clarity on what people mean by that, a bit more commonality, and actually see some, some really interesting things, interesting things happen. So, so, yeah, that’s where I think, you know, that’s, that’s what I’m kind of looking forward to this year, to see where we get to with those things.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 15:55
Yeah, Rebecca, just absolutely 100% and want to be interesting to get to a point of, you know, we all have to be prepared for the shifts that we don’t know are coming, right? And we absolutely want to put our fingerprints in. What’s going to be interesting is to see how folks go from proactive to the tech getting too preemptive. That’s going to be interesting, but that requires a lot of trust and a lot of learning from that machine before it happens. But going back to what Matt said, and I think it’s really important for folks who are newer to this industry to understand every industrial revolution we have had, and we lived through the automation, the early days of automation, where people were using a typewriter and they wanted to do the exact same thing in their on-prem solution, and then when SaaS came in, they wanted to do the exact same thing in SaaS that they did in an on-prem. They just want to be a little bit faster, right? And AI is the same thing. We’ve never seen a shift like we’ve seen with AI. It truly is a cognitive shift. It truly is our conception, our ability to create meaning in the world, is so different now, and so HR struggles with that, right? And this really does sit in their seat and for a long time. And I think one of the things we’re going to continue to see which will separate out and really goes back to to Matt’s point of what is hrs role in shaping the future, because a lot of times it was the recipient of strategy in tech, right? Not the driver of it. It was mostly focused on the execution of operational stuff and those companies that truly understand the people who hold the skills. And we’ve got to question things like, Do we agree with proficiency measures anymore? And all that fun stuff, as Matt said, it changes, but the HR departments that can really bring those things together in a way where they can pivot, they can be agile, and maybe they’ll be the ones making some of those market shifts, right, some of those kind of ripple and thunders. And it’s going to be very interesting to see this year, kind of who’s going to come out top dog. And there are so many really good human implications as well that I hope to get a chance to talk to and talk about, that we interesting to see how employers use those
Rebecca Warren 18:08
I’ve been taking notes. These are some great thoughts and comments, little bit of sound bites, little things that just continue to pique my interest. You know, I think, kind of summarizing all of those pieces is that going forward for HR, and I love what you talked about. You can’t separate tech from process anymore and and we also can’t live in the managed helplessness, as you said, Matt, right. We’ve got to put that together. So we are hiring now going forward. We’re hiring tech leaders who specialize in HR, as opposed to HR leaders who can do tech. I think that is a shift that’s hard for HR in some cases, because you can’t separate the tech out of what HR does the data is, is critical in order to at least making informed decisions. And the other thing that that I think, is super interesting is, I think about when you try to separate, you know, the tech from process. And I was chatting with a co worker of mine saying, I don’t know. We both said we don’t know how we did our jobs before we had Gen AI, right before we were able to go into chat GPT, throw some things in there. It’s really good for me as like a thought starter getting my my creative, my creativity going. But I know that not everybody thinks about chat GPT as that positive creativity starter, so I don’t know. Dr Patty, if you have a point of view on that, or Matt, is that the right way for us to be thinking about it as a maximizer of our creativity?
Matt Alder 19:43
From a creative perspective, I think I agree with you. I think the problem is, very often people will treat it as a replacement for creativity. So it’s kind of like or do that for me, and it’s actually it’s about partnering with it, in that process to help me brainstorm, come up with 10 ideas about this. I’m going to shape them, I’m going to do stuff with them. I’m going to add my own kind of human prospect to it. And just from a pure writing perspective, I’ve been trying to teach the thing to write like me for a year now, and I still, however, I can get it helped me, you know, be creative and work a lot faster. So I think it I also, I think thinking like that starts to really help people really appreciate the potential of AI. Because I think if you just look at it as something, I’ll give it some instructions, it will write some mediocre copy for me, probably make a few mistakes. This isn’t really very good, is it? So I think it’s just a it’s a different way of thinking about what the tool is actually, is actually for.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 20:46
Yeah, I love that. I want to go back to something, and then I want to come back to this. What you had said is interesting, Rebecca, about a trend around hiring technology first, right? Versus HR first and not something that’s a little worrisome to me. And when I look across the industry, I’m still seeing more tech upgrades versus transformation implementations. Those are two different things you can upgrade to AI, right? But if you aren’t using that’s a technical thing, that’s a change management. What companies need to do is large scale transformation, because the way that work gets done, and you know, some challenges companies are going to have, like, bring your own box to work day, and that stuff kind of stays there when your people leave, and, you know, all of that. But what I think that I love the example you brought up in that response, because this is not about artificial intelligence. It’s to Matt’s point, augmented intelligence. And having your, you know, kind of little, smart best friend. And what we’ve seen with every single technology evolution from an industrial perspective, is, ultimately, what it does is replace this decision, right? So, you know, in the early days, you know, was I going to go work for a very dangerous kind of machine thing? And therefore these are the decisions I had to make. And so we see that with technology that elevates it, and how interesting that our starting point with the chat gpts of the world that give us some structure. It might be wrong in content, it might be wrong in structure, but if we ask it the right questions. In other words, we are changing our critical thinking. The US is not for the teaching critical thinking, the analytics right. When Analytics was first coming and people have the data, they didn’t know what to do with it, and so other countries were much better. But it elevates our decisioning because it forces us to ask higher level questions. It also enables us to have a starting point of multiple sources of data. So folks like us were very used to looking at like for me as a leadership futurist, I look at the future of industry, the tech, geopolitics, you know, labor laws, all that stuff, therefore the future of leadership, right? How are we going to succeed based on what’s going on up here and what I have in my company, therefore the future of work, and therefore the future of how work gets done, artificial intelligence plays in certain areas in our world. It is truly more the augmentation and so just super, super important. And just wanted to make sure we’re thinking about that.
Matt Alder 23:19
Can I add a point to that as well, just because I think this is quite, quite an interesting example. So at the moment, I’m trying to clone my voice sounds like a crazy sounds like a crazy thing to do because I’ve got a podcast now. The technology is incredible, and it can give something that sounds very, very realistic. If you use it for a very short piece of text, it sounds exactly like me. You couldn’t really tell it was different. If you use it for something that’s really long, it gets uncomfortable after a while, because it’s just like this. Feels quite robotic. There is something is missing, and I think that’s interesting kind of comparison, perhaps, you know, what’s going to kind of go on in HR and automation and all that kind of stuff. It’s like the, you know, the robots can fulfill a really, really good job at a kind of a, you know, kind of a tactical level, a functional level, you know, in that kind of, that short that, that kind of short communication, all those kind of things. And it just feels natural. But the human part of this is still absolutely essential, because humans talking to humans, there’s more than words, there’s more than there’s something that’s going on. And I think the interesting thing for HR is that it should really be HR who are managing that interface between humans and machines deciding, you know, what’s the human? What’s the machine? How do we deal with people, all that, all that kind of stuff. So I think it’s a really interesting it’s an interesting person. And I think it’s a really important thing for HR this year, actually, that should be the thing that they are, not something that’s dictated from from elsewhere, absolutely.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 24:58
And I you know, we’ll see this, and we’ll continue to see it. There are two things Matt brought up that are super important, right? So the first is, what is HR’s role? Because their role isn’t, is it eventually going to move just beyond the people, right? Is it also going to be, how are we going to use tech to do things? And we’re seeing them, we’re seeing them do that, right? We all work in this space, and we’re seeing them make those decisions, but they continue to make them from a tech perspective, not what Matt was talking about. So that’s quite different. And what we’ve seen in the last few industrial revolutions, the last one that brought us the Googles, it also brought us the you’re never going to talk to a human being on the phone again. You know kind of pain. It was all about how to machines interact with people with AI and where we are now, it’s all about how, I’m sorry, how people interact with machines. Now it’s all about how machines interact with people. We’re starting to see empathy for freaking machines now, right? Like, isn’t that crazy? So, and it’s not about people being replaced by machines there. That is more about me feeling like I have something catered to me. It cares about me. It’s listening, right? Whereas before, it didn’t care if I was on hold for, you know, three hours or, you know, if I got what I needed. It was more transactional. Ai, is now more transformational. The other thing I’d like to see this year, and Matt brought it up, right? So, I was a CMO. I was in marketing for several years in this world. And the when I first started back in the late 1990s it was when the CFO was really starting to be born, right? They were bean counters, until they became, you know, sitting at the right hand of the CEO and having that financial and it was all about the financial resources. And it was HR learn from the CFO, because you handled the human resources, and it never quite got to that strategic role. It’s really in marketing now, right where that has just completely changed, COVID through that stuff, you know, just crazy. But you know what Matt just said, there’s so many incredible things, including uses for podcasts the way you communicate out things when we understand, of course, HR is a very big marketing, branding, communication role with their people, which then also outsiders learn and do I want to do business with a company like that for HR to really pay attention to, what are those human connectors in a way that you can do them bigger and all of that, but personal. How are you going to employ some of those marketing kinds of tech in a way to engage your people, ensure everybody’s, you know, rowing in the same direction, in the same canoe, and all of that really interesting. And we can see that Eigthfolds a great example, right? What you’re able to do from a connection perspective. But I really interested to see how this goes, and will they follow the route of marketing, right where they become the voice right of the of the people?
Rebecca Warren 27:53
Well, let’s, let’s talk about that. I think that’s great, that all of the things I’ve got pages of notes this is, this has been phenomenal. And so how do we, how do we in HR, right? We talk about going from reactive to proactive to pre and preemptive. How? How does HR now shift from that managed helplessness to tying to organizational goals like it feels like there’s such a shift, as you said, Dr Patty, in terms of HR, used to live in a silo. You know, finance lived in its silo. Everything marketing was in its silo, and now it feels like there’s a lot of swirl. And so how, what does HR need to think about in terms of aligning organizational goals, market demand, hiring the right people. Like I former practitioner in TA and you get a hiring manager who says, I want, you know, this purple unicorn, whatever we want to call it today, right? Do we actually even know at the time? Like I was like, I don’t you as a hiring manager, tell me what you want. I don’t know what that’s driving for in terms of organizational goals, just the hiring manager, right? Like, I think there’s a lot more happening right now where we need to in every hire we make, understand what organizational goal does that tie back to? What are we trying to accomplish? Right? And it needs to have that information cascade down so people aren’t working in a silo trying to hire this people. We’re hiring the wrong people. We’re doing the wrong thing. We’re not having those conversations. So how do, how does HR start developing that muscle of aligning organizational goals with market demands. What kind of things should we be thinking about? Is it skills? Is it data or decision? Data-driven, decision making? Is it collaboration, like, where do we start? What do we think about there?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 29:46
So, okay, so, you know, I think there’s some good old-fashioned common sense. So there’s the going back to the basics of tone at the top, mood in the middle, buzz at the bottom right. Everything is set, not in HR, typically from the CEO, right? So first is making sure you have those right constructs. Do we have a culture that will enable us to be able to align the things we say that are important, the things we say we want to do with the stuff we do? So the first is getting a very good and if I were in HR, really, really press this in the C suite, which is, what does success look like? What’s going to feel different next year, what’s going to look different, all of that. And then, how do we know we are successful? That’s metrics. What are those measures? That is absolutely critical, because if you are not very specific on what those things are that need to change in your organization in order to gain market share, when the new customers do whatever it is that you want to be able to do, from a strategic perspective, an operational perspective, all of that has to be aligned measured, and make sure that we understand the difference between data points and metrics, right? Super, super important. Therefore that becomes your North Star. The next thing is around that leadership in governance, it is just absolutely critical that there is a mutual, common agreement on, how do we actually make this happen? And and, you know, where, where is it okay to pivot? Right? There’s a difference between shifting and pivoting. And what does that actually look like? Super important. And then all that typical like continuous market analysis, we’re going to be in a very lots of companies are going to be acquired, right? We know that there’s just a lot of consolidation across a lot of industries. That’s what happens with market shifts like this. Super, super important. Excuse me. Obviously, the robust stuff around risk management is really critical. So Right? Those kinds of things, nothing has really changed. It’s how we do them, the insights that we have and the different types of data we can bring together in order to answer those. The next piece, everybody can have a great strategy, but that mood in the middle is critical. How are you going to operationalize it? And one thing that kills me when we talk about tech, because that’s we’re going from tech being an enabler to a lot of times being the tip of the spear to enable us to do other things that we didn’t even think were possible. Chat GPT is an example of that. So what are we going to do there leaders and middle managers, as long as well as those people we hire to do execution, everybody has to be aI enabled and AI smart. And so when we see you talked about skills, and it’s important, if you are in a job based workforce planning approach, is that still helping you? Is it still helping you to have a job with a description that says, essentially, here’s what this thing is, or is what skills gives us to do, is the fluidity, which is exactly what we and those skills directly go back to, to your point, the impact that I as an operational person right a middle manager, the person the most responsible for your people. They hire the vast majority. They decide who gets promoted, how people get paid, how people get developed. They’re looking to HR to provide the tools in order to have that happen. So what does that look like? And then the buzz at the bottom right, are we focused on the right culture elements? Are we saying we’re this, but acting like that with the tools and the practices, because people that stuff just doesn’t change. Being sure that you are giving people those AI technologies, or the freedom to use things like chatgpt and giving some kind of context around them is critically important, because all of us are sick and tired of getting tools that get in the way of work, get in the way of me managing myself as an employee or a contractor. So a lot of that stuff just hasn’t changed, right? It’s all all kind of the same.
Matt Alder 33:53
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s, there’s sort of two things here for me. The first one is the strategic bit of this, and I think talking about the rise of the CFO and the spectacular rise of the CMO, that’s all been about data that’s all been about them, particularly with marketing, to illustrate beyond any doubt, that if they do this, it affects this, which drives the value for the company. And it is that kind of sophistication around data that has, you know, raised that function to where it is. So I think that, you know, data sophistication and how that aligns with organizational goals is that is the is that is the key to this. And what I think is interesting, and what I think is changing is, if we look at this from a from a skills perspective, perhaps with skills, we’ve actually got a unit of data that we can use. Because I think the problem with HR has been trying to quantify the unquantifiable. It’s just like, how do we talk about, you know, people in the same way that we talk about money and, you know, brand equity, or whatever that is. And you know, perhaps skills offers the chance to have that kind of commonality of breaking things down. So that’s the first part. I think the second part is very much about mindset. And one of the things that’s really struck me about what AI’s been doing in the talent acquisition space is we have all these kind of shared cultural norms about how work works, and what HR is and what HR is supposed to do, and how recruitment works. You know, you have a resume, you have a job, you have an interview, people ask you questions, and it’s sometimes, I think we underestimate how entrenched this kind of thinking is in terms of what we do. So I think that there’s a big mindset thing here about actually, you know, things have changed. The things that were, the HR norms of the past aren’t really there anymore. And I think that people really have to question everything, you know, question the status. Why are we doing this? You know, what’s going on? I’m always fascinated by, it’s almost like the the corporate archeology, sometimes in companies about digging down as to why something is done the way it’s done. And actually, you know, you might get to the answer, and it’s actually ridiculous, but it’s just we’ve always done things that way. So I think, you know, challenging that kind of status quo and having that very different mindset is also an important is an important part of this?
Rebecca Warren 36:27
Yeah, because we’re talking about balancing agility with long term strategic planning, and we’re looking at things very differently. Matt, I would love it if we could just get rid of the resume, and that’s a whole nother topic, but like, we got to do it different, because if we’re talking about moving to a skills based organization, yet we’re looking at a chronological resume, makes me want to stab my eyes out like we were. That’s such a mismatch, right there, right, moving towards that more flexible workforce model, right, looking at different ways of getting people engaged. And I know we’re going to spend some time talking about engagement and experience, but how do we get people involved in their career? Doctor, Patty, you were talking about that to that personalization, that connection. We we continue to think in an org chart, but the work needs to get done on whatever we want to call it a chess board, or in a completely different way. And so our HR leaders also have to be thinking about, how can we and Dr Patty, that was great, how can we not shift? How do we pivot? It’s that same. You know what? You were talking about, the difference between up, leveling or transforming, right? How do we make sure that we are thinking about the right things in the short term, as well as tying to those long term strat planning things that we need to be thinking about, that flexible workforce model, scenario based workforce planning. And I’d love to have someone talk about that, if you want to. And then and then that that culture of continuously learning and adapting and not feeling like my job looks like this, but my skills look like that. So I’ll just leave that there. I don’t know if anybody has any things that they want to jump in on that, but my first thing is, let’s just get rid of the resume.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 38:21
Yeah, but the challenge is, lots of companies, right? Workforce planning is much easier, or maybe it’s not. It’s just how we’ve always done it, to Matt’s point, has been based on jobs, right? So when we are, you know, money, it’s money, and so how are we going to business plan around skills? How are we going to actually make that happen as a business? Way of doing business, it’s a very different model. It’s extremely complicated and extremely, actually complex, beyond complicated, but I will say just some basics have to be in place. Do you have a skills architecture? Do you have a framework? Do you know what are the most critical and important, right? Do you do your people? How are to your earlier point? Rebecca, what is the role of HR versus what is the role of hiring manager? Right? We work a lot in deep with DOD. Everything is based on the next project that they have, and there’s some skills, and we’re used to this. We grew all grew up in tech. I’m used to the job I have today won’t be here tomorrow, right? I love that, but not every industry is like that, and therefore not every manager is prepared. It is a completely different kind of thought process, a completely different kind of decision making, and the tech is there, and so many of us are not. So we really need to think about that, and whose role is it to enable us to be that way? Right in HR, it’s, again, it’s a big shift. We work with amazing clients. They’re so smart, but they’re hiring for jobs. And you know, this is really where human capital comes in, because my human capital are the skills I have, right, the curiosity I have, where I want to go, what my potential is, and, quite frankly, relationships I have. So it’s just such a completely different shift. The tech is there. We have to change with it otherwise, right?
Rebecca Warren 40:21
I think that’s the key question, right? Whose role is it to make sure that the shift happens? Yeah, all right, so let’s go ahead. Matt?
Matt Alder 40:31
It is an interesting question, but it’s one that the answer is that whoever does it first, right? It, but it might be finance, it might be operations, inevitable, that there’s gonna happen, and it’s just like, who’s gonna who’s gonna do it? And you’re right, it’s easy, very, very complicated, but
Dr. Patti Fletcher 41:00
you guys might remember, I don’t know, maybe it was a decade ago. Who knows? My years are all weird. But you know, the future of HR is no HR, and that keeps coming into my head. Matt, right? You know, based on what you just said, maybe that’s what we meant. I don’t know, but, yeah, I love that.
Matt Alder 41:19
We’ll see no precedent for this, so it’s No, right? So, yeah, it is interesting to see what happens.
Rebecca Warren 41:27
I want to switch to talk about employee experience in a second, but I think there is something about where, where do those things live? Is that a project? Is that table stakes, right? Like, where do things, where their initiatives are, programs like, we think about Dei, we think about skills, we think about those are initiatives and programs now, but should those all be embedded, right? And that is, if we think about more, more broadly, is that where HR should be? Right? When we think about no HR, it’s because it should be in every single thing we do, the way we think, how we do things, we’re not there. But you know, how do we take away the silos of this is a project. This is an initiative. This the program. And say this to what you were saying earlier, Patty about the culture, yes. How do we embed that?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 42:18
Yeah, and you just hit the nail on the head, though, right? If HR doesn’t break down the silos and be skill focused versus this is my job, and that’s your job focused. How can they lead anyone else doing that? Yeah, so, right? What does this look like? And again, you know, Matt, I think it was you talked about, or recommend, from org chart to right? What’s this next thing? And I’m finding myself, over the last few years, focused in on back to what does success look like? How do we know we’re successful in organizing around those things? Some of them are initiatives to create that large scale, mainstream thing, right? You throw it over the fence, and others are truly operational, but that’s been the focus. But I’ll tell you what, it’s hard because I’ve had to bang, borrow and steal from different, you know, departments and but it’s also really forced me as what is, where do I bring in a gig worker for something like this? Like, where do I spend setting up the skills? And then, what is the way I’m going to have that transaction be the money switching hands. Do I need this person permanently? Is it a temporary set of skills to create this change? And I like that because it was too hard to do that with an org chart mindset.
Rebecca Warren 43:32
I couldn’t do that. And so how do we pull that?
Matt Alder 43:36
I mean, I completely agree in one of my books, I co wrote my books with Mervyn. We talked about the concept of total talent thinking, which was, which was just that, just kind of like, right? We, you know, this is the organization. This is where we’re going. These are the skills we need to do this. That’s the starting point. Then it’s like, okay, how do we, you know, what do we do? You know, who’s permanent, who’s gig? Do we hire an AI to do this kind of bit? And it’s just looking at that holistically, and that doesn’t fit into the current structure that you find in most talent HR, at all departments. So it’s kind of like we’re already seeing this crossover between talent acquisition, talent management, learning and development. And it’s a kind of a structural thing, and it, it’s that it’s that kind of change in that way, way of, way of thinking, and I think it’s just, it’s just kind of critical, because it’s that that’s that that kind of unlocks the path to be able to to do all of this.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 44:31
It does, and it’s unprecedented. So we’re talking about it, you know, very the way that we should be but all of us know the pathway there. We’re gonna have to figure it out right. And that’s the other thing, is moving away from perfection and more toward progress, iterative progress, which is why those measurements are so critical. Don’t just add that big number at the end. Really have first. This has to be true in order for the next thing to be true, in whose fingers need to be in that pie? This is not change management. We are not retooling. We are transforming what Matt talked about, mindset as well as heart set right, wanting to be different, having a desire to be different. This is not going to think of hard. And I would say it’s probably the hardest job right now in business to be in.
Rebecca Warren 45:29
HR, well, if you think about that transformation that we’re trying to get to and Matt, I think you’re right, we can’t just throw the resume out yet, because companies aren’t there, but maybe, and we’ll, we’ll spend a little bit of time talking about this. Maybe that transformation starts inside the organization, right? Maybe it’s looking at what is that employee engagement versus experience look like? How do folks inside of a company feel connected to the culture, to the people? Do they feel included? Do they belong? Do they have that sense of the world is my oyster once I made it inside to this company, because they personalize things. They care about me. They know who I am, right? Maybe that’s that start. But I want to spend just our last few minutes here talking about, is there a difference between employee engagement and experience? What does that look like, and how could we maybe start shaping from the inside to drive those changes to the outside? So I think, Dr Patty, you have a point of view on this. I’d love to hear what you think about that.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 46:32
Yeah, for sure. So this is really where the marketing hat in me comes out. So Right? Because it was all about customer experience and employee experience, but what’s the point of experience, if not too deeply engaged? And we’ve all watched the Gallup numbers over the last decade and a half, and nobody’s engaged. Everyone’s on Facebook, right, or playing solitaire or whatever it is, and so buying stuff off of our social media feeds, that’s what we’re doing.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 47:01
That’s interesting. That is exactly what I’m doing. There’s not enough sparkling water for me, right? So there’s no separation. And that’s what gets me so excited about AI, because you talked about personalization, but let’s bring in the concept around employing health and well being. That is something that’s only going to continue. I also think it’s something that might actually save d, e, i, b, diversity, equity and belonging. My experience must be belonging. And what does that mean? That means that I N, H, R, can’t point at Matt and say, Matt, you belong here. Instead, I need to make sure that we have the right culture in place. Not my decision. It’s HR right. That’s what we work with the rest of the C suite on, and then we execute. But it’s that I bring in those right processes, those right tools, that right AI to Matt to look in the mirror and say, I belong here. That is total health and well being. That goes beyond making sure we have the right benefits packages. It also is the continuation of HR having to understand it is not a one to many. This is a one on one. One size has never fit all, and now we do. So I love I read something from Anna Tavis the other day. She’s from NYU, I think. And she was talking about how cool it’s going to be with AI because of the empathy bone, where I’m have this, like, constant best friend with me. And not only is it, you know, Matt, I have the same experience where AI just can’t seem to learn. And I’m like, You’re not so smart AI, right? Because it’s not like picking up a writing style and all of that. But there’s so much in the tooling that we’re seeing from an employee perspective, where not only am I going to get some answers and then it’s going to start, you know, automatically prompting me with things or giving me things based on what it’s seen in the transaction, but it’s also going to read beyond my sentiment. It’s going to go to my motivation. Is it happy? Is it’s sad, and so it’s able to be compassionate, providing me empathy as well as actions, to be able to harness my all of my power, whether it’s on the total health and well being, of course, you know, my physical health, my mental health, my financial health, all of those things, which is one of those things going, Wow, that’s an employer’s job. Now, sure is right, and this is critically important. We think about it this way, because health and well being is not just a North America thing. This is important in Asia Pacific for those global companies we have. It’s just as important as it is in EMEA. So these are really big things, and imagine having something that truly feels like it was meant for me at a much deeper level than just beyond. I’m giving you money and you better be productive. It’s very, very exciting to me. Brings us more human, and how crazy that machines are going to be able to have high EQ that’s pretty great.
Rebecca Warren 49:55
What a different definition around health and wellness. It’s not just, are you getting breaks from your desk? Are you getting outside and walking? What’s your BMI, right? Health and wellness is all of those things I love that description and thinking about, you know, Matt saying I belong here, instead of Dr Patty saying you belong here. What a show and not, you know, map with your skills, right?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 50:18
There are certain things you want your company to invest in. This changes all. D. It changes everything.
Matt Alder 50:27
No, I mean, 100% I completely, I completely agree. See, you know, the first part of this is, obviously, you know, mass personalization, so enabling HR to be personalized at a scale that’s not been possible before, but that’s only half the story that’s not going to take us to a more engaged workforce. What, what is, is the the kind of the the extra things that AI unlocks. So you know, from a from a mobility perspective, you know, all this data about me, all the data that you’ve got about me when I joined the company, in terms of what I did before, everything about my performance, all this kind of stuff. And you know, you’re suggesting places that I can go within the business and all this kind of stuff, whereas before that that’s just been locked away in departments and silos, and people get frustrated because they don’t feel seen, and feel their potential seen and all those kind of things. So I think that, yeah, the ability to unlock that is is phenomenal, and that’s what it’s all about. It’s about being able to do more than if it was, you know, even if you just had enough humans to be personalized with everyone. It’s actually the power of AI to do that, and I think, slightly tangent, gentle, but probably relevant, you know, on that kind of health and well being thing, and how AI can make that really personalized. I’ve got, I’m using, kind of, one of these whoop band trackers at the moment to track sleep and sort of stuff, and it’s got aI built into it. You can just ask it questions about, How can I sleep better? What can I do? And it doesn’t give you generic answers. It gives you answers based on your data. And it’s an amazing experience, because I’m like, I feel seen by this computer.
Matt Alder 52:07
That’s just more so than if I went and talked to a coach or a human and be like, Well, you could do this. And it’s like, well, actually, this thing knows exactly how I sat last night, or exactly, you know what’s what’s going on. So I think that’s the that’s the key to it, and it is really exciting for the organizations that get that right.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 52:23
Good. So by David Valdivia has a question about what’s your personal favorite AI tool, and I love that you said that, Matt, because mine is my aura ring, which I should probably stop using. But I love it, and I swear to God, it’s made me a narcissist. I’m Fascinating, right? It’s incredible. And what this does is it helps you understand how you can be the best version of yourself given the amount of sleep you had, you know, the workout that, whatever it is that this thing can track, it’s a career,
Matt Alder 52:54
career skills version of that absolutely phenomenal.
Rebecca Warren 53:00
Okay, so I’m watching the time, and I’m crying because we have like, three more hours of content which we are not going to be able to get to. So I have one question before we do our wrap up, I want to just spend a minute, like, literally a minute. So love to have you both have a 32nd point of view on what role does trust play in this change, this shift, this transformation coming up, how can trust make or break these changes that we’re talking about? So Dr Patty, I’ll start with you.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 53:31
Yeah, it’s the bedrock. If you don’t have trust, you have nothing. And right now, people are not trusting political leaders or business leaders, and they’re specifically getting a lot smarter about their data, and they’re very uncomfortable that their employer knows more about them than they know about themselves. So trust is absolutely critical here.
Matt Alder 53:53
Yeah, I would completely echo that. I think that you know all of this works because people are happy for their data to be used in this, in this kind of way, and I think that trust is the key to that, but also it’s the benefits that people can see they’re getting out of it is also, is also the important part of this. If people feel they’re getting benefit, the benefits out of it, and there’s trust, then, then it works.
Dr. Patti Fletcher 54:15
We give up our data for the convenience of Amazon, right? And this is going to be interesting that I like what you just said, and I’m going to take a note on that, underscore it and quote you, because it is that critical. What are they going to get in return?
Rebecca Warren 54:30
Okay, awesome. So I’ve got one final question for us to wrap up with. And then Ryan Serrano has a question, then I am actually going to turn into a blog post about sparkling water. So Ryan, just know that you are heard, you are seen. And I’m going to write about the difference of how sparkling water represents our future, which I think is such a great question. So okay, so my last question for you all, before we wrap up, is, what’s one thing you recommend HR leaders do differently in 2025 what one thing should HR leaders be thinking about differently? Matt, do you want to start for us?
Matt Alder 55:09
Yeah, challenge the status quo. Keep challenging the status quo. Keep asking questions. Why do we do this? Why do we do that?
Rebecca Warren 55:19
That is short and sweet. I love it. A lot of writing on that one, right?
Dr. Patti Fletcher 55:25
Yeah, I love that. And I think adding on to that would be get very smart about augmented intelligence right now, in a way that is far more strategic, in a way that is leading different ways of leading, of doing work, of bringing people in, like, really, truly, getting the human side of the tech versus being forced the tech side.
Rebecca Warren 55:50
Fabulous. I appreciate you both so much. This has been a great conversation. As I said, there are so many more things on my list that I wanted to talk about that we will hopefully have you back, and we’ll have a whole nother conversation. Thank you both.
