[00:00:00] LIGIA: Welcome everyone to another episode of the New Talent C ode, new year, new topics, new guests, super excited for those of you who are new to our podcast. Um, we talk about everything talent related, with my cohost, Jason Cerrato. Hey, Jason.

[00:00:15] JASON: Hey, Ligia, Glad to be back. Looking forward to the conversation.

[00:00:19] LIGIA: Yeah, it’s been a while. So many topics out there. A lot of conversation about generative AI, a lot of conversation and rumblings around skills and becoming skills based organizations. So I’m really, really excited to jump into today’s episode. Um, As you know, our guest is Darren Lancaster, the CEO of Hudson Global.

[00:00:38] Um, and for those of you who don’t know, um, Hudson builds best in class recruitment and talent management solutions around the world. So working with a lot of customers globally across the Americas, Europe, and the Middle East. So super excited to hear, uh, what kind of conversations he’s having.

[00:00:55] JASON: It’s an exciting time in the world of HR. Everyone is working on transforming their organization, but it’s also a very challenging time to be in the world of HR as we’re building the future together. So really looking forward to having this discussion with Darren based off of the size and scale of the customers he’s working with and the projects that he’s supporting are really excited to hear some of the takeaways, outcomes, and best practices he can share with our audience.

[00:01:20] LIGIA: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s not wait much longer ’cause I know, uh, people are curious. Uh, Darren, Welcome. Thanks so much for joining us today. Uh, few words of wisdom to get started. Tell us about, um, how you got here.

[00:01:33] DARREN: thanks for having me. I’ve been in recruitment and the talent acquisition space pretty much all my career. So I came out of university, um, not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. I had. Uh, next door neighbor who was working within the recruitment industry.

[00:01:50] Um, and they were doing pretty well. And, um, I thought that could be a good career, uh, for me to get focused on. So, uh, that was really the start. So back in 1997, I really started at the bottom of the kind of recruitment ladder. Um, I was a researcher, I was a sourcer, so I was out, uh, really searching for IT professionals at the time, um, and, um, trying to find them a job predominantly within the kind of contracting space, um, back then, um, but I very quickly moved into, um, uh, managed service programs, um, or what would.

[00:02:25] Now recruitment outsourcing programs back then, but the term RPO wasn’t necessarily that widespread and, um, yeah, from there, um, started to work on a large, um, outsource business. They were an IT outsourcer, um, but got experienced in kind of working on in Goldman Sachs, trying to find, um, IT professionals for them through this provider.

[00:02:47] Um, and that really started me off kind of really in that kind of outsourcing world. And I did that for a good few years, and my career has sort of progressed, um, into lots of different routes from there. So I’ve only ever worked for three organizations. Um, I’ve worked, um, from the Spring group, which is owned by a deco.

[00:03:05] I worked for the Robert Walters group, and now I’ve been 14 years in Hudson, RPO, great organization. I would say that I’m the CEO, it’s exactly what what I should be saying. But ultimately, you know, I, I helped kind of build the EMEA up. strong in APAC, um, and I helped build the Amir operations.
[00:03:22] And for the last four years, um, I’ve also been, uh, taken on the responsibility for the America’s region and helping to build that out. So kind of fully integrated kind of talent solutions within these organizations and a whole variety of different sectors, you know, ranging from financial services. Is life sciences, businesses, manufacturing, even retail organizations now.

[00:03:46] Um, but across the board, um, helping to them with their talent, kind of acquisition, uh, problems and statements that we’re trying to help them with. So yeah, quite a, quite a long career. I don’t like to count the years. Uh, hopefully I look a little bit younger than, uh, than those years. 1997, five kids. Keep me, keep me looking a little bit older, but yeah, that’s me.

[00:04:07] JASON: Wow. I mean, you’ve, you’ve had a phenomenal view of just the change in this space, right? If you think about it from where you started to where you are now and all the change that’s happened, you’ve been there watching it over time as have I, and there’s, there’s not much. That’s the same from how we started, right? Darren.

[00:04:27] DARREN: Yeah, no. And I think, I think when you think about it, you know, ultimately, you know, it is about, it’s about candidate care. It’s about, you know, looking after that candidate through the process. I’m trying to match that candidate directly to what your clients requirements are in terms of what they’re trying to hire.

[00:04:42] Um, and the Kind of the service and the relationship that you give to both parties, uh, which is important. However, I would say the things that have changed, um, for me during that period is the use of technologies, uh, which have helped us. So if I think back to the ways in which, um, you know, I used to kind of resource, uh, and find people, it was very much really.

[00:05:04] Um, through our own database, um, of candidates, which would be called, I guess, a CRM now, uh, in today’s language, um, which we call it, yeah. And, you know, like, if I go back really early days, I was faxing CVs, but, you know, and the email came along pretty quickly, yeah, quickly after then, um, around it. But it’s not just, you know, I mean, they’re obviously, you know, things that have been around for a long time, but it’s the different technologies that we’re utilizing now, which has made our life, um, Um, so much easier, uh, as a recruiter.

[00:05:30] So, you know, I often think about, you know, product, I mean, productivity’s, uh, sometimes feels like a bit of a strong word in terms of what someone’s actually doing, but it’s just re in reality. That’s I guess what the helpfulness, um, to a recruiter of the tools that are available and there are. Um, so many tools which help you to source candidates.

[00:05:32] And of course, the social network, um, as allowed that, you know, the likes of the linked teams, particularly, uh, for the types of folk that we’re looking for, um, as made that super easy to find people, but it’s really the technologies that. Um, assist in the engagement level of those people, you know, real understanding about, um, what they like to see, if you’re going to send an email to them, it’s the personalization of it, it’s the, the psych part you can kind of take, um, from their LinkedIn profile.

[00:06:03] So I’m sure all your listeners know, but you know, there’s really good sort of Chrome additions that you can add, um, to, um. Your your base, your web browser, which can kind of predict, you know, there are things that people like you like a long email. Do you like a short email? Um, do you want to be get do you want me as a recruiter to get to the point really quickly?

[00:06:18] Um, regarding it and all of those things can be helpful from a recruiter. But then also, you know, the utilization of technologies to help you just around diversity and inclusion around it. You know, we could be got You know, technologies which can take away the name of someone and we can just search, you know, effectively blind on the name of the individual and certainly take away anything which is allocating to, I guess, gender in any way, um, or nationality or any of those types of things can, uh, or ethnicity.

[00:06:47] See, uh, can take away from those things that we can just kind of blind search them. So, so many different things that come in, but the fundamental basics, Jason, you’re correct, you know, are still there. You know, it’s about, um, it’s about matching, you know, in talent acquisition it’s about matching a candidate then, uh, to, and hiring managers ultimate, uh, request and doing it really well though, and doing it with, you know, with good customer service, uh, which is, uh, I think, which is the most important thing.

[00:07:08] JASON: So in the world in which, in the world in which you work, you’re dealing with candidate care and working with talent, but also servicing organizations and working with talent leaders. You know, you just talked about kind of the evolution of how you get your job done. And I too, I too started in an agency and used to race people to the fax machine and thought it was cool when I had an e fax, when I had an e fax number and my email signature, right?

[00:07:31] Right. Right. Um, and now here we are in the world, in the world of AI and personalization, but you know, we’re here today to talk about the new talent code and how people have to think differently and operate differently and manage and measure differently. What are some of the things you’re hearing from the clients that you’re servicing and the organizations you’re helping around? What are some of their top talent challenges and maybe some of the new things or the new challenges they’re bringing to your attention?

[00:07:55] DARREN: Yeah. So I think, you know, ultimately the talent landscape, um, hasn’t particularly changed for, you know, a few years on certain aspects, but there are new thing, new things that are coming up. So talent shortage, um, still remains around certain skillsets for individuals and, you know, that doesn’t chain well. Yeah, I think, you know, when you think about the kind of skills that are looking, you know, from a technology perspective, you obviously immediately think to yourself about, you know, the AI type skills, um, which are proving difficult, but when I kind of think for it, I think for a list, I kind of think. You know, obviously, cloud computing is a challenge for people.

[00:08:36] Um, I think, you know, anything in terms of software development, but also, um, I guess kind of like, um, aspects even in kind of digital marketing and types of those types of areas. And the evolution of that, um, is proving challenging. Um, I think. There’s another way of also thinking about it. That’s not necessarily skills, well, skills based to a point.

[00:08:57] Um, and the way in which I think about skills is you can kind of have a traditional view. And if you go back kind of through my career, it was often, you know, I would. You know, get a job requisition from a customer or client and they would, you know, back in the day when you were allowed to say, you know, they’d say we want five years experience of this, et cetera.

[00:09:17] And obviously that depends where you are in the world, wherever you can say that anymore, um, around it. But what we’re actually seeing is a change in the way in which our clients, um, acquire skills. So, um, if I, if I took one example. Of that, then you could think about curiosity as being kind of one of the key attributes to what organizations are looking for, because what they’re looking for is the future potential of the individual.

[00:09:42] It’s what the, because the, the job in which we’re operating now. In at the moment is going to significantly change over the next few years because of the introduction of AI technology, you know, our expectations of what we currently do in our current form and the way in which those technologies will change our kind of the work in which we’re performing.

[00:10:04] Um, we need to adapt to that and we need employees to adapt to that. And that’s what my clients, you know, ultimately need, um, is us to recruit people that can kind of be adaptable to that change. And, you know, just picking on that one aspect around curiosity is one of those areas that does allow for that, because it means that someone has a learning mentality, um, which is important and can be adaptable, um, to a changing role, uh, which they face.

[00:10:32] Um, you, you can say, you know, just in, in, in very simple things, you don’t need to, um, necessarily have, um, uh, a personal assistant or secretary to kind of look after you because technology can book your meetings for you. It can allow you, um. Uh, the ability to book travel, all of those types of things are super, super easy and sometimes quicker done by the individual than an assistant to a certain extent, but it will be a lot more based around, um, the more sophistication of your job, uh, that you have in terms of the way in which these technologies will help and enhance you, um, which will make the significant difference.

[00:10:32] LIGIA: make such a great point because, uh, sorry, Jason, I think that, you know, one is the recognition that roles are going to change because of AI. And I think a lot of it is what parts of the role are going to become more efficient and to certain extent automated or complimented, right? So that’s one. And what kind of skill sets then do you hire for?

[00:10:48] And then there’s the second one, which is, I really wonder if there’s any role out there that will not use. Uh, generative AI in some form or fashion, right? And understanding and developing the skill sets to incorporate that into your everyday.

[00:11:03] DARREN: Yeah, I think so. I, I think the good point that you kind of raised there, um, and obviously there’s. There’s lots of talk, um, at the moment about, you know, the power of AI and, um, how are we going to monitor it? And if you look at, you know, I guess the conversations that were being having just recently in Davos, um, in, in, from that perspective of the way in which world leaders are trying to sort of approach that.

[00:11:28] And I think that there, you know, I think it was only probably a month ago. You know, there was a summit, I think in Scotland, you know, for global leaders around AI or certainly in the UK. Um. Where, where the everyone was brought together, you know, key leaders around this play around the world to kind of talk around that sort of monitoring and etcetera around it.

[00:11:49] And I think, you know, to your point, it’s kind of those key roles is going to need to be a balanced approach towards it. In the way in which we use it. Um, and we’ve got to kind of feel secure in our approach, uh, regarding it. But yeah, from my perspective, um, if I, if I take, um, the position as a, as a CEO of, uh, of a talent organization, I can only see the benefits of it rather than the, the parts that are going to pull us back because I, you know, I strongly believe that, In, in everything that’s ever happened or the evolution of the way in which technology has led us as always often created jobs rather than, um, sort of put eliminated jobs.

[00:12:35] If you just look at the, uh, acquisition of data sense, I mean, they just pure data centers and those, those types, you know, I read, you know, I put my a little bit, you can probably tell from my ex, I’m a UK national regarding it, but you can, Even Google, you know, announced, you know, the acquisition of, you know, key sites and the setup of data centers around that.

[00:12:35] And you just think about those levels of jobs and in the most basic form, which obviously something that annoys me is when I drop my phone and I smash my case or anything else like that, you know, you would never go into a shopping mall and see places, you know, that fix phones when I first started my career, but now you can’t get away from the whole career.

[00:12:55] You know, there’s a massive, I don’t even know how many people work in that. Working exactly the work in that way around it and making them and things like that. So I, I’m a firm believer that that opportunity exists, um, uh, around these different parts, um, of what we do, what we just become is more efficient, but with that efficiency, um, ultimately there is more of a higher expectation, um, around, you know, what, what we will achieve and that. That can come from a simple, you know, point of I’m going to put a pitch document together for a client or I’m going to put a PowerPoint presentation to a client. The expectation level of the client will be far more advanced than it was 10 years ago about my level of. Probably competency of, of what’s happening within, or the way in which I represent, sorry, not the competency, cause I probably had the same competency, but the, the way in which I represent information and all those types of things will be far more advanced, um, in that way.

[00:13:36] And that’s what I think, I think we will see, um, definitely. And we’re seeing it. It’s not, it’s not actually something that you’re waiting for. It’s, it’s real. It’s happening around us now. Yeah.

[00:13:43] JASON: Darren, here, here in the U. S. we’re going through a significant transformation and there’s some turbulence where we have very positive measures in the labor market and we also have some very negative measures in the labor market all at the same time. You know, we just went through two years where on average the unemployment rate was less than 4 percent and that’s the first time that’s happened in over 50 years.

[00:14:05] But at the same time, we’ve also had some layoffs. And part of this is I think organizations are kind of recalibrating their roles and reevaluating their jobs to figure out what they’re going to need going forward. How are you seeing some of the information that’s coming to your organization change in the requisitions that your clients are submitting or the assignments that you’re getting asked to fill?

[00:14:27] Are people giving you information differently or? Portraying jobs differently or asking you to look in new areas. How, how is this changing kind of the information and the requisitions you’re receiving?

[00:14:27] DARREN: Yeah, I think it is. I think it is changing. I think it goes back to one of the comments I made. So the requirement for organizations to not necessarily always look at the technical competencies of an individual is changing. So that doesn’t act as such a high dependency for them. Um, when they’re looking, um, at the requisition, there is a lot more involvements around the further skills and competencies that someone would have, um, based against, you know, what typically you may see for an accountant, you know, requisition to probably, you know, today’s requisition for an accountant, um, requires different.

[00:15:05] As I say, different competencies that align to that. So I think that that becomes important. And to a certain extent, the way in which we then the things that’s changing within our world is the way in which we then look at the assessment of that individual. So if you go back and just think to yourself, well, you know, my accountant, you know, we were looking for, you know, proven recruits.

[00:15:26] What, looking for the qualification, looking for, um, potentially, um, the experience in terms of, um, how you’ve progressed through your career to get to a certain level, um, for it, which may have been important in the past. Um, we have to really change the way in which we assess that individual, um, to make sure that they’re important.

[00:15:31] So how do we do that? Um, assessment. Remains really quite important to the process. So I’ve always been a big believer, um, in in assessment because I, I do believe that when you’re interviewing a candidate is very, it can be quite easy for a hiring manager to get into a conversational, um, type, um, interview, um, rather than, uh, what would really be required is, um, an interview, which is based across the assessment that individual’s done and working out where they.

[00:16:01] Um, strengthen, um, potentially development areas, uh, are. So I don’t see assessment as being black and white in terms of you pass or you fail. I see assessment as assisting, uh, the interview process to kind of hone in on the areas which you really need to drive to, um, to help you. I think also, um, I guess leveraging kind of the interview techniques that you ultimately have, um, is important, um, to. Yeah. Okay. Still look at specific skills around it, but really sort of draw down on those competencies, which we just spoke about, um, in trying to help. Uh, which is, which is important.

[00:16:37] JASON: And just as a, as a follow up, you mentioned earlier curiosity, right? So when you think about, you know, the, the assessments and kind of more of a forward looking, you know, future looking perspective, are you, we, in our world, we, we talk about skill adjacencies and learnability. Are you seeing a lot more conversations around that in your engagements?

[00:16:51] DARREN: Yeah, I think so. I, um, when, when I’m talking to organizations, it’s, the learning is, learning becomes quite a key criteria um, for, for them in terms of the way in which they’re set up as an organization. So, um, You know, it’s often, it’s often within a job specification or even a job advert. Um, you don’t, you don’t often see that, um, any kind of learning or any of that kind of thought, uh, in any of those different aspects when it goes out to the market.

[00:17:27] Um, but what you’re really trying to do is you’re trying to find someone that has a really, um, high. I guess I, well, IQ to a certain extent, but a high level of competency to learn, uh, is kind of the key area that you, you want to really hire. Cause you, if you can hire that, if you can get that person that is, is adaptable to learning, you know, it’s, it’s really easy.

[00:17:51] And, you know, it’s not, you can read many books. It’s not, you know, when you’re a child and you learn, you know, cause you keep failing and you learn and you learn and you fail and you learn regarding that. And, and. You know, as you, you know, very much in a traditional and it does depend on, um, I guess your age profile of where you’re at is, you know, how quickly, um, you’re comfortable in that environment and how and how an employer, um, kind of treats that, um, In a safe environment for the employee to fail and learn around it, or whether they are dictatorial to the individual and don’t give that employee the confidence that they are in a safe environment is what I talk about quite a lot in my organization is just making sure that our employees do feel that way so they can learn and fail.

[00:18:41] Um, we don’t want to keep failing, but the point is, is the learning from that, you know, and it’s, you know, there’s no secret. I mean, there’s many books written, blacks, black box thinking and all the things that are learned by aircraft and all that from a few side. Um, that all those parts are basically around learning from the crash, learning from the crash learning and just learning completely and consistently, um, around what you’re trying to do.

[00:18:41] So it’s a broad, uh, uh, broad Topic, but you need to bring that into basically your attraction of individuals, I believe, and you’re going to need to continue to do that. That’s not going to change anytime soon.

[00:18:41] LIGIA: So you mentioned earlier, I mean, there are skills out there that you’re not necessarily going to find very readily, especially, you know, we were mentioning digital skills, uh, cloud skills, et cetera. What, at what point do you, um, encourage companies to start looking internally for talent? And does this approach to learn ability and adjacent skills also apply in your opinion?

[00:19:01] DARREN: Yeah, I think, um, I think when you, when you kind of break it down in terms of, um, we, we spoke, uh, You know, a few moments ago around talents, uh, the talent shortage, which still exists around certain skill sets. So that’s, that’s not going away recession or no recession. Um, they still, they still apply and they’re still there.

[00:19:01] And it depends on where you are as a company, whether you’re even affected by recessions, you’re not necessarily affected in life sciences, for example, so much as you are in some of the other sectors. Um, but I think, um, the internal mobility platform, um, which organizations create. Is kind of one of the key structures, uh, which organizations, uh, need.

[00:19:12] I think, um, the parts that can help that though is the AI parts, um, which you can kind of introduce into internal mobility, um, will be super helpful, uh, in the future because, um. They can basically think about the way in which you tailor that profile, uh, within your organization to see whether that can then be adaptable for the future or future roles or future skill sets that’s coming out within the workforce plan.

[00:19:44] Um, so I think that’s important. I think, um. Also, I guess, um, career path, um, for individuals is important, so that’s a genuine, um, interest from your, um, current, uh, line manager, um, into where your career ladder, um, is ultimately going. Um, and where it will be progressing for you for the future. So it’s looking at the capabilities of the individual.

[00:20:13] Um, but it’s also visualizing effectively what the potential path is of a, of an employee and where the future can be. Uh, for them, um, there’s a basics, I think, just around kind of communication of job openings. And I know that sounds really basic, like, you know, yeah, but it’s not like some organizations are really poor, um, making, um, employees aware of what they’re looking for.

[00:20:38] They feel that sometimes there’s. Um, confidentiality, which there is in certain circumstances that they’re, but it’s almost like lifting the curtain on certain, uh, situation for an employee to say, you know, you know, this is what’s available within us. Um, it’s, it’s going back to the thing that I keep talking about is continuously, um, continuously learning. Um, through, through the job. So it’s, but it’s the encouragement of that and it’s creating the culture, uh, within your organization, which would, um, be important, um, I believe to, to really, really make it helpful.

[00:21:11] LIGIA: What do you think are the biggest challenges your customers face in taking a skills based approach both to recruiting, um, to finding candidates, but also for internal mobility? I mean, I think theoretically it’s an easy concept to grasp. I think once, you know, rubber hits the road, it becomes a little more challenging to implement.

[00:21:21] So organizationally, what do you think is the biggest hurdle to overcome?

[00:21:21] DARREN: Yeah, I think, I think ultimately, um, it’s the, the focus on skills and not potential, um, is one of the biggest areas I think also, um, Um, I guess it’s, it’s around that, um, learning, learning and development. So whilst I, you know, was talking a moment ago about the way in which, um, I believe organizations, um, should be changing them, but we are seeing around it, the actual fundamentals of actually the application of that.

[00:21:44] isn’t necessarily as easy, uh, as it sounds. Yeah. So, cause you know, we’ve, we’ve been hardwired, um, to work to a certain way. Uh, Jason and I were talking about originally about, you know, well, I didn’t say that long ago, you know, your facts in the CV. So we, we were hardwired, we’re still hardwired as a, um, as a hiring manager in certain ways to interview people in. In a traditional format around it. So how do HR teams actually make that change, um, for their hiring managers? So they need to train them. They need to teach them. They need to show them the path, but they also need, yeah, success. And it does need to come from top down. It needs to come down from the CEO, uh, ultimately, um, to, to be helpful within that process, um, to communicate that thoroughly, um, throughout, I think, um, there’s also the part.

[00:22:27] Um, we’ve spoken about development, um, for employees, but, um, I think, you know, the, I put an employee, I guess, at the heart of it, um, is, is one of the areas, uh, around it. And, and look, this is going to be a little bit tough at the moment because we were in a cycle at the moment where. Um, you know, well, yeah, you’re in a cycle where there’s a bit of cost containment around it, and there’s certain areas and functions which often feel that pain in cost containment.

[00:22:39] Learning is one of them. Marketing can be other. There are various, um, that can feel it often. And, um, the most successful organizations are the ones that will Be able to power through that, um, and believe that because it still comes back to, you know, the point that we were talking about, there still remains a talent shortage within certain skills, um, that exist.

[00:23:00] And in actual fact, it’s the future skills that we’re, that we’re trying to find, which is where the biggest talent shortage is going to be because, you know, again, depending on where you are in the world, um, the educational systems and things like that can, um, Not necessarily, yeah, be provided what you need.

[00:23:19] LIGIA: Yeah. But I think Go ahead.

[00:23:19] JASON: As you’ve been, as you’ve been talking about thinking differently and managing differently and applying some of these tools with your clients, but also with your internal team, are there any, uh, learnings or, or takeaways or words of advice you can share or things that you have learned that you may do differently now with, in hindsight?

[00:23:37] Heh heh

[00:23:37] DARREN: Yeah, I think, um I think if I look, if I looked back and thought about, you know, what we would, what we would do ultimately differently, I think, um, the interview techniques that we use, um, I think that we could, um, certainly change, um, in certain ways. And I think, um. You know, a focus around what we’ve spoken about around sort of skill based, uh, around that.

[00:23:54] I think, you know, we certainly could. I think also around, um, suppose ultimately around the employees, um, development and the career paths and aspirational paths around What they require, um, is another area and I, I go back, you know, that can sometimes be a generational, um, side of things, you know, if I, if I look at my, my eldest son’s 20, um, he’s at university at the moment, um, he’s studying in accountancy, um, but he’s probably expectation is he’ll be CEO.

[00:24:31] You know, around it and that’s, and by all means, I want him, why do I want him to be a CEO? I don’t know. Sometimes, some days, some days I’d say yes, some days I’d say no. Um, but in terms of that expectation level around, you know, he, you can do anything and be anyone and you can be a billionaire, you know, by the age, you know, in your mid 20s to late 30s, sorry, early 30s, um, You can do that, which is a great thing to have in an organization, but it’s also, sorry, not an organization in general societies.

[00:25:04] I’m a big believer in you. You can do anything. Crikey. I was doing a paper round when I was 12 years old, you know, going out six days a week delivering newspapers in the freezing cold. And, you know, I wanted to be really successful. That’s kind of one of the drives, you know, once I wanted to money, but I also want to be successful longer term in my career.

[00:25:22] So I don’t, I don’t believe that’s a bad thing to have a tool, but I, I do believe it does create problems within an organization because everybody has, everybody. Believes, you know, that they can be that super success. Not everybody. But you know what I mean? There’s a high percentage that believe that they can be successful very quickly around it.

[00:25:44] And it’s just trying to curb that and manage that within your organization, which can be the challenge around it. And we, you know, and everything we’ve spoken about today, we’ve been talking about learning, development. Curiosity, all those kind of themes around what we what we want to create within the organization.

[00:26:02] But then we’ve also got a kind of, um, soften that also is we do need doers in the organization to effectively do these roles and do the jobs. And not everybody can be the manager can be the boss ultimately in that doing role. But you can still be super successful and having a really good career, though, equally without sort of moving the traditional way through that career ladder.

[00:26:27] LIGIA: How do you see the roles of, um, for our audience, mostly made up of HR professionals and potentially recruiters? What is your advice? How do you see their roles evolving? You know, especially, we just said earlier, we kicked off the show talking about, um, the conversation is all about becoming a skills based organization.

[00:26:44] The conversation today is about AI. How does that change the role for HR professionals for recruiters? And what would be sort of some practical advice from you?

[00:26:52] DARREN: Yeah, I think I think which is difficult because I do appreciate, um, this is difficult talking to people within HR is, you know, the forward, um, forecast sort of workforce plan of the organization is almost often lacking around that. And, you know, that creates difficulties within HR to actually sort of anticipate what that future workforce, um, necessarily looks like.

[00:27:14] So I appreciate that. Um, that’s a challenge, but however, you know, whilst it be a challenge, um, that’s one of the areas that if you can get right, um, that will really, absolutely, absolutely. And I think that’s one of. One of the areas, the other, the other part that I would say is, uh, you know, agility, uh, into the process.

[00:27:19] I, I work, um, and cause we work with lots of different organizations there, the way in which they kind of, if, if we’re, if I think through. You know, the different solutions that we’ve got, you know, we have solutions that car manufacturers, we have solutions that life sciences businesses, we have them in, uh, in retail, as example.

[00:27:39] And when I think about that, you know, their, their appetite to change and the change management, even if you’re doing something around a continuous improvement initiative or something like that will depend upon where you are as an organization. And, um. But with an agile sort of full process to that, um, I find that that proves a hugely more successful, um, than a process that everything needs to be perfect.

[00:28:05] You know, you need to get to perfection at the end around it. I, you know, I always like to be proven wrong, but I always find that that. Just is never successful projects delay. You don’t actually ever get to the perfection that you required. Um, and in actual fact, the agility of being able to work through and to have relatively decent pace, um, is helpful around it.

[00:28:29] So I think agility in any of the program and the transitions that you’re going to do and the change management processes that you’re going to go through. I think this is important.

[00:28:39] LIGIA: Yeah, fit to plan for those ahead. So we always like, you know, obviously we like to talk here about nonlinear careers, but I think in your case, yours has been quite successful and quite linear. So referring back to your son, uh, in, in university who wants to be a CEO, I’m curious, um, if you hadn’t gotten into recruiting and had the career path that you had, maybe when you were your son’s age, if you would reflect back, what, what did you want to be when you grew up?

[00:29:04] What kind, what other line of business would you have pursued? Yeah.

[00:29:04] DARREN: Uh, so when I, it was, it was really, really to a certain extent, straightforward for me. So when I was doing that paper round and then working in a shop and things like that, I always wanted to work in the financial markets. That’s kind of what I always wanted to do. I always kind of had this vision that if I worked in the financial markets, I’ll be successful.

[00:29:21] I put a pinstripe suit on, I’d go up to London on the train every day. I do my whatever. And whatever I believe is the right thing, the 9 to 5. 30 job, I’d get the train on the hour commute and I’d come back on the hour commute and I’d do that and I’d be successful in that way. And I’d certainly be in the office five days a week and all those types of things, which was kind of commonly, you know, thought of as being successful, uh, around it.

[00:29:45] And that’s, that’s what I believed, you know, in a long time. And to a certain extent, that’s probably why it took me. Into recruitment. But then I started to work with lots of financial institutions. Um, so I worked with lots of the banks and they were typically more investment banks, um, than anything else.

[00:30:02] And I loved it and I absolutely loved it because it was to certainly, you know, going back to the, I guess this lad that was a paper boy, uh, doing it, I was kind of like living my dream. I was going into them and I, I kind of felt part of it and I probably never, ever sort of lost that part, uh, around it. In what I did, but equally, you know, whilst, whilst recruitment and talent was kind of a step that I moved, um, just out straight out, um, to a certain extent of, um, university, you know, I did spend even with university, I was selling washing machines, I was selling, um, video recorders, TVs and stuff like that to, to kind of earn a, and, and some money around it.

[00:30:14] So, you know, and that, that part of, um. You know, I was always relatively outgoing. I used to like selling things. I used to like convincing people, uh, around things, kind of all of those kind of skills, the skills that I learned during that period, uh, was then kind of transferable into, um, what I do even now today, you know, when I’m trying to talk to customers or future clients about what, what we can do, you know, still relevant.

[00:30:35] LIGIA: That innate curiosity that you talked about earlier.

[00:30:38] DARREN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:30:40] LIGIA: Well, thanks so much, Darren. This has been, um, a great start to the year. Um, lots to talk about, lots coming. So really appreciate your insight and your advice.

[00:30:50] DARREN: Thank you. Thank you both.

[00:30:52] LIGIA: Okay. Uh, I think that wraps it, Molly and, uh, Callie.