SHOW INTRO

[00:00:00] LIGIA: Welcome to The New Talent Code, a podcast with practical insights, dedicated to empowering change agents in HR to push the envelope in their talent functions. We’re your hosts. I’m Ligia Zamora.

[00:00:19] JASON: And I’m Jason Cerrato. We’re bringing you the best thought leaders in the talent space to share stories about how they are designing the workforce of the future, transforming processes, rethinking old constructs, and leveraging cutting edge technology to solve today’s pressing talent issues. It’s what we call the new talent code.

[00:00:38] LIGIA: So if you’re looking for practical, actionable advice, To get your workforce future ready, you’ve come to the right place.

EPISODE INTRO

[00:00:50] This week, we have one of the leading analysts on talent intelligence in the house. Madeline Laurano is the founder and chief analyst of aptitude research. She spent her career analyzing the human capital market, especially when it comes to applying new strategies in talent acquisition and employee experience. Her latest research dives deep into talent intelligence. Madeleine literally wrote the paper on what talent intelligence is and isn’t, and the very real ways it can impact a company’s performance. Madeline is an advocate for companies using AI to transform their workforces, especially when it comes to driving change through a skills based approach. Please stay tuned and hear how Madeline demystifies talent intelligence and how companies can approach applying AI to their talent practices to get their best results.

INTERVIEW

[00:01:38] Welcome, Madeline! So happy to have you!

[00:01:42] MADELINE: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. It’s great to see you both.

[00:01:45] LIGIA: Excellent. Well, listen, let’s get started and Jason’s going to join right in, but, um, as a way of introduction on our podcast, we’re always fascinated by the nonlinear career paths we’ve all had.

[00:01:56] Um, we’re firm believers that people can and should try new things in their careers and be hired for their potential, not just for the skills they put on a resume. So with that, tell us a little bit more about your career path.

[00:02:08] MADELINE: Thank you. It’s hard to remember. It feels like I don’t even remember. I don’t even remember how it started because I’ve been an analyst for almost 20 years, which is crazy.

[00:02:16] LIGIA: Um, well, did you want to be an analyst right out of school?

[00:02:19] MADELINE: No, I did not. I actually studied, well, I went to school for pre med and then realized probably in the first two months of school that that was absolutely not going to be my career path. And I switched to international relations and international business.

[00:02:33] And I loved that. I loved, you know, learning about history and I loved, um, studying different cultures and languages. And then very quickly realized, you know, 9 11 happened, the world was changing, what I thought I would go down in a career path, which was like the CIA or, you know, Homeland Security was starting at the time.

[00:02:55] did not really work for a French major or a French minor. It wasn’t the language they were looking for anymore. So, um, I ended up working for a consulting firm in Boston and they did a lot of organizational development. And that led me into learning a little bit more about technology and into this great world of HR tech.

[00:03:15] LIGIA: I hear intelligence, intelligence, and that background has a lot to do with what you’re doing today.

[00:03:20] MADELINE: It does. And interesting too, like I, the first, you know, I started at a consulting firm after grad school, but then I ended up working for a large analyst firm. And there were not a lot of women that were analysts at the time.

[00:03:32] It was very unusual. Most, especially associate analysts, were coming in and, you know, Same year, but most were men. So I was at the time, the only, um, woman who was kind of joining as an analyst, so they immediately kind of put me into HR technology. Um, there wasn’t even a question that maybe I do supply chain or manufacturing or retail, it was just there, this is where she belongs.

[00:03:54] Um, so it, it’s interesting and that’s changed quite a bit. We have a lot of, um, men that cover HR technology now too, but at the time. You know, it was interesting to kind of look at the analyst world.

[00:04:03] JASON: So Madeline, we talk about, you know, sliding doors and these things that have happened in careers that have shifted and changed, you know, where you’ve landed and you’ve been in this space for some time.

[00:04:13] One of my favorite things that you do is when you pull up these presentations that you’ve given at conferences from years ago and show how the market has changed and how things have shifted, but also sometimes how they’ve stayed the same. Right, and how you may have talked about topics for some time, and we may be rehashing some things that people have been discussing for periods of time, and I think there’s some of that going on, but we truly are at a period of transformation, right?

[00:04:40] JASON: We truly are at a period of disruption, and there’s a lot going on. of discussions going on right now of how people need to think differently and operate differently. And that’s a big part of what we discuss here on The New Talent Code. Can you talk about some of the recent discussions that you’ve been involved in about just the transformation that’s going on and some of the disruption and kind of how people need to think bigger?

[00:05:04] MADELINE: Yeah, I actually just joined Hallease. You know, uh, recruiting brain food podcast. And this was the topic that we discussed. And it’s interesting because transformation is what companies are going through and every organization and every industry is going through some type of transformation. And HR seems to be a little bit isolated from some of those discussions.

[00:05:24] And I think that’s what we’re seeing. There’s a lot of opportunity. There’s a lot of change happening. And. HR doesn’t necessarily know how to be part of always those, those transformation conversations. You know, it’s, it’s interesting because we’re seeing that the landscape has evolved quite a bit. Jason, to your point, like it’s changed so much.

[00:05:43] It’s not just, you know, ATS providers and recruiting and LMS providers and learning and the, you know, an HCM provider to kind of. Take care of everything else. Now we’re seeing so many different providers offering so many different solutions. And yet the same old debate about do we go best of breed or do we invest in an HCM suite is still the big topic that we see.

[00:06:08] And when I think about transformation and companies and HR trying to get more involved in these conversations, you know, it’s an opportunity to really look at the technology that companies are investing in and how do we make sure that The technology we’re using is driving that transformation. So if AI is kind of an example and AI is a big topic within transformation, a lot of talent acquisition and HR professionals view it as we’re just buying AI.

[00:06:35] We just got approval to buy AI. We’re interested in AI. There are some fears internally, but we now have this free money to buy it. They’re not thinking about what the transformation and what the outcome of that would be. So talent intelligence, strategic workforce planning or talent planning. All of these are transformations within organizations.

[00:06:56] And AI can help drive that. And I, I don’t know if we’re talking about transformation in the right way. Um, and I think that if we, you know, change transformation, so it’s not just using artificial intelligence or just buying new technology. It’s actually thinking about what those outcomes could be and the potential it could bring to the organization. I think then we’re having much more meaningful conversations.

[00:07:23] JASON: I happen to catch that recording with Hung Lee and the panel and it caught my attention because it was titled future of work talent acquisition not invited and and and part of that was, you need to think bigger, right? That the business is transforming and leaders are having discussions about where they’re headed.

[00:07:41] And if you’re solely thinking about just improving what you’re currently doing or optimizing for today, you’re not thinking big enough. Right. And, and, you know, the world may move, and if you’re not moving at that same pace, you’re not involved in the discussion. So I thought it was very thought provoking, um, and really enjoyed it.

[00:08:00] So, um, it’s out there. There’s a recording if people listening want to, want to go back and, and listen in. But I think that’s part of the transformation that people are, Currently trying to get their arms around. Um, you recently released a major research report about talent intelligence. And I think that’s a big part of what’s happening in the HR tech space these days, and we’re happy to be a big part of that.

[00:08:22] Um, why was that so important for you to report on and discuss? And, um, I know aptitude research webinar with. Your various stakeholders and it was a big topic of conversation. Can you share kind of what you’re hearing and what you’re thinking about talent intelligence as it relates to this topic?

[00:08:42] Madeline: Yeah, I love the topic talent intelligence, but it’s been very confusing. So it’s, it’s been a passion of mine to do this research and you know, even to talk with you about it because I think everyone’s misusing talent intelligence. You’re seeing providers, every provider seems to be using it in some way, even if they don’t have any idea what it is or what they’re doing, they’re using it as a buzzword.

[00:09:05] And I think for me, and when I look at the research that we do, if we can provide clarity around what talent intelligence is and how companies should be thinking about it and how they should be evaluating providers, that’s the value that we can provide as analysts. And right now there’s just a lot of confusion. So it’s, it’s an exciting topic for me. I think this is where the opportunity in HR tech is. I think we just have to clear up. That confusion.

[00:09:30] Ligia: you mentioned in your report that there is interest in investing in talent intelligence. And as you said earlier, everyone has a budget line item or, um, an initiative this year to invest in AI. So let’s go ahead. Can you go ahead and define what is talent intelligence and what it isn’t?

[00:09:48] MADELINE: Yeah, you know, talent intelligence is the insights that allows you to see your full workforce and the potential of your workforce. And, you know, it’s using AI, it’s using a skills based approach to be able to see that full potential using internal, using external data.

[00:10:04] If you look at, you know, Jason, you talk a lot about this, a system of record and then what talent intelligence should be. The system of record has data on employees, has data on people. Talent intelligence is. Drawing insights, seeing the full potential, putting all this in context, being able to truly understand your workforce, and that relates to talent acquisition, that relates to talent management, that relates to strategic workforce planning, um, and this is, this is where transformation is happening. This is the opportunity for transformation.

[00:10:34] JASON: I was just working on something this morning, and I think I actually was referencing you, you’ve often been describing town intelligence that if you are actually applying it and using it correctly, it becomes a win win for everyone. Can you kind of talk about that? How you’re thinking about that?

[00:10:53] MADELINE: Yeah, I think for a lot of areas of technology. It’s not just true for HR technology. I think it’s for broad technology. The benefit is typically for the organization. You’ve got stakeholders and they buy technology and the benefit is for whatever managers or employees or different groups within your organization need to get out of that technology.

[00:11:10] We’re not often thinking about how does this technology benefit our employees? How does this benefit job candidates? So talent intelligence Is a win win because not only does it provide organizations with the way to really see and get insights into their workforce and make better decisions around talent, but it also helps individuals be able to have a fair and inclusive opportunity.

[00:11:34] They’re given a fair opportunity to. Be able to, you know, apply for a job and go through that process. They’re able to be given a fair opportunity if they want to change careers, if they want to see what opportunities they have for growth without having to go to their manager and, you know, say, I want to leave your group and I want to go to another team.

[00:11:51] This is an experience that allows individuals to be seen. For who they are and what their potential is, and that really hasn’t happened in our workforce and, you know, probably ever before. We’ve started to see kind of what you know, I can do what a skills based approach can do. It gives individuals an opportunity to really be seen.

[00:12:12] And to me, that’s the win win.

[00:12:14] LIGIA: You also talk in your report. Um, and it’s been mentioned before. I think that Part of the issue here is the change management. I think it’s easy to become overwhelmed. And like you said, there’s so much, um, being attributed to talent intelligence that truly isn’t talent intelligence.

[00:12:29] What’s your advice for our listeners and for anybody kind of trying to research this space? Where should I start? What should I ask for from a vendor? What is it I should really be looking for? And then more importantly, how do I define success? As they’re trying to build their business case. Yeah.

[00:12:45] MADELINE: Yeah. I love this question. And I think it’s, um, You know, for me, when I look at it as an analyst, I try to look at the full picture of the provider. I think it’s so easy to get excited by, you know, a buzzword or to get excited about some, you know, different functionality that companies might be interested in. But I really encourage companies to look at the full picture.

[00:13:06] You have to look at the company. What is this company? What is the deep domain expertise that they have? What is their heritage? Um, how are they, Looking at AI. Do they have AI experts? Do they have ethics committees? Do they have, you know, these this deep domain expertise in this area? You know, skills is, you know, obviously, a big part of talent intelligence, too.

[00:13:28] And a lot of providers are just putting the word skills on everything they do. And they don’t have, you know, the real, You know, work behind what a skills based approach is. So you need to look at the company. You need to look at the team and the investment. I always ask companies and providers to share what the breakdown is of the percentage of employees on sales and marketing versus the percentage on research and development versus the percentage on customer support to see kind of what that balance looks like.

[00:13:57] And so often there’s. Just not a lot of employees on research and development. And I think that says a lot when you’re looking at innovation and when you’re looking at a topic like talent intelligence. So you want to look at the full company, like get curious, do your due diligence. You want to look at the product.

[00:14:13] And obviously, um, that’s where a lot of companies go and that’s where they stop, but I wouldn’t stop there. I’d ask for a roadmap. I’d ask for differentiators. And I think if you get really curious. When you build that business case and you take ownership for it and you become a champion for really wanting to uncover who these providers are and how they’re able to differentiate and address what you need, then I think that’s always a great place to start.

[00:14:38] JASON: One of the things that you’ve said in the past is just because you have data doesn’t mean you’re a town intelligence provider, right? There, there are certain capabilities, the way the data model is set up. Is it a dynamic system? Can you provide a real time understanding of skills? What data sets are you using?

[00:14:55] What outcomes are you driving? Can you share some things around the importance of that real time understanding of skills and kind of some of the outcomes that that drives that are different from maybe how that’s done in more traditional systems?

[00:15:08] MADELINE: Yeah, I think a lot of traditional systems. It’s just static data. It’s just data that they’ve collected. Um, they’re not able to pull data in from other systems. And, you know, oftentimes a lot of that data isn’t even updated. Um, it’s not most comfortable. What we found in our research is there’s very little trust around the integrity of the data or the accuracy of the data and a lot of those traditional systems.

[00:15:29] So, you know, talent intelligence, you know, the idea is that it’s dynamic. Um, so it’s being able to really understand data. Um, yeah. You know, there’s the skills based approach, but it’s in a very dynamic way that’s drawing insights. And with very traditional systems, that just hasn’t been the case. Um, you know, even looking at how a lot of these traditional systems have been integrated, it hasn’t been at all.

[00:15:55] I mean, if you look at the CRM model, you know, talent intelligence is kind of the new wave of where CRMs are going. And I know that you’ve seen that too at Eightfold, but the traditional CRM, it’s. It becomes just outdated information, um, that’s not available to even recruiters. And what we found is incredibly low adoption, incredible complexity, and recruiters just don’t even want to use these systems.

[00:16:23] Um, you change that and make that a talent intelligence CRM where you’re able to kind of draw these, these insights. There’s a skills based approach, um, that is dynamic. It becomes a very different way of using.

[00:16:38] JASON: And one of the things that we found is by adding talent intelligence and an understanding of skills, the whole purpose of campaigns changes, right?

[00:16:48] You’re not using campaigns to build candidate pools. You’re using campaigns to action the pools that are already there. The talent intelligence already has generated the audience for you. Right? So it kind of reverses that whole approach. Um, one of the things that you’ve also been very active in researching and talking about is strategic workforce planning.

[00:17:11] Um, and you know, here at Eightfold, we’ve been rolling out talent planning and the use of talent intelligence along those lines. Can you talk about how these worlds are converging as well?

[00:17:21] MADELINE: Yeah, it’s, you know, very interesting to look at strategic workforce planning, you know, or talent planning. And I know you had a big announcement last year because it’s a topic that isn’t new necessarily.

[00:17:33] It’s one that’s been around for a long time. And the biggest Mistake that companies make is that they use it as either a layoff tool or something that they should focus on just during a down economy or when layoffs are happening. And it’s like, okay, now we need workforce planning, because now we need to justify why we’re doing all these layoffs.

[00:17:52] So it becomes this big topic. So we saw this as kind of a big topic last year. You know, the fear is that this would just again become something that becomes a start and stop for organizations. But I think what’s happened and the evolution that we’ve seen with strategic workforce planning and when you apply talent intelligence to that topic is it’s not something that’s just a start stop.

[00:18:13] It’s not just a point in time. It’s not just a layoff tool. It’s something that needs to happen all the time for organizations. You need to understand your supply and your demand for talent. You need to be able to. Think about different scenarios that might be happening and be able to plan around that.

[00:18:27] And when you get into that practice and you do that regularly, the benefits are tremendous. So I think we’re still very immature in strategic workforce planning and talent man and talent planning. I think companies still have a long way to go, but the potential of what this can be is much, much different than what we saw.

[00:18:48] LIGIA: Yeah, there’s definitely, you brought another topic to mind. There’s definitely a lot of education happening. Are CHROs aware today of talent intelligence? What’s top of mind for them?
[00:19:01] MADELINE: Yeah, so it’s interesting because we did this study last year and we had more CHROs participate in the survey than we ever have. And that was eye opening to me because, you know, we run surveys all the time and, um, you know, we got great participation from HR professionals and, um, from recruiters and, and users. But to see CHROs. engaged in this survey topic that we call talent intelligence really said something. It said, this is, this is the big topic in HR tech right now.

[00:19:30] This is where the interest is coming from. It’s coming from that C-level, um, executive. But what we did find is that there’s a disconnect between translating what talent intelligence is from HR to other parts of the business. And that’s where, um, I think we’re seeing the disconnect that CHROs are interested. This is the topic that everyone wants to talk about, even though there’s confusion, but we don’t necessarily know how to articulate that topic and talk about the outcomes it can deliver internally.

[00:20:04] LIGIA: Can you talk to some of those outcomes? How should they approach the rest of the C suite? Because talent intelligence isn’t just an HR technology. The benefits aren’t just to HR.

[00:20:13] MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, if you look at how it impacts not just talent acquisition, because I think people try to see where talent, does it fit into talent acquisition? Is there something on talent management? You know, it really is kind of the full spectrum of what HR does. It’s recruiting, it’s talent management.

[00:20:29] Um, and if you look at kind of what it does, it really does. Outcomes organizations want to drive in these areas during the retention is a big topic. We’ve seen sort of every trend come out in the past few years, but this is this is a huge topic, you know, and if you look at what talent intelligence can do for retention and you use internal mobility as the kind of the popular you case is the example for talent intelligence.

[00:20:54] What happens with internal mobility when you don’t have to have talent intelligence is that Companies will post jobs on an internal career site, and that looks great, could be the most beautiful internal career site you could ever see, you could advertise it to every employee so they know exactly where to find it, they don’t need to go to their manager, but the experience is they apply for the job, and then they’re treated and run through the same exact process as an external candidate, they’re treated like a stranger, and There’s no personalization, there’s no context, there’s no insights, it’s just, okay, you got to apply for a job on a special career site, but you’re probably not going to get the job.

[00:21:34] And after you don’t get the job, we’re not going to tell you why you didn’t get the job, and we’re also not going to give you insights into what you might need to do and what skills you might need to build to be able to apply to a similar job or to find another job within our organization. We’re just going to leave you, um, with a rejection.

[00:21:51] And that’s really does not do anything for retention. We did a case study with an organization and they found them a very high internal, um, mobility, internal hires. 40 percent of the hires are internal and that’s very high. But what they found is that 68 percent of those internal candidates that didn’t get the job.

[00:22:11] left their organization. So those could be people that loved working there, saw this beautiful internal career site, and then decided, I’ll try this. And now look how I was treated. And then they hired somebody outside. I work here. I know this company. And they hired somebody outside. That makes me feel horrible.

[00:22:27] With talent intelligence, And it goes back to that win win, not only are you able to really see kind of the potential of your talent with internal mobility, but you’re able to then provide an experience to employees to say, okay, we see, um, who you are. We see your potential. We know you have these skills.

[00:22:48] We’d encourage you to think about these skills and here are some other opportunities that you might want to consider. Um, That doesn’t feel so bad. That feels like, okay, um, thanks for understanding who I am. I’ve worked for you and now I’ve got a little bit of work to do or there’s some people to connect with.

[00:23:06] Um, that’s a relationship. The other, the other option without talent intelligence, that’s not a relationship.

[00:23:13] LIGIA: Yeah, and I think it works both ways, right? As a manager, I might feel, Oh, gosh, I don’t want to lose employees, but at the same time, it’s so much faster and so much easier and productive to find someone internally to transfer in an open role than to look externally.

[00:23:27] JASON: For these CHROs that are getting more involved when the conversation involves skills and involves town intelligence. Are you seeing them engage in other buying behaviors or evaluation methods? Are you working with companies that are Yeah. Building AI councils or other types of kind of collaboration with the CIO or the CFO.

[00:23:52] MADELINE: Yeah, it’s interesting because, um, I think a few things, I think one is that the pandemic kind of opened the doors for more involvement from other parts of the organization where a lot of these meetings and a lot of the client work I used to do. Was in person so I’d have to figure out time on my calendar and go in person and then we do these off sites and then we’d have these meetings and oftentimes you wouldn’t get a CIO that would have time to join this now we’ve got zoom and now we’ve got these this virtual environment and people can drop in and out of meetings.

[00:24:21] Um, and it’s very, um, easily and, um, it doesn’t feel awkward and it’s happening all the time. So I’ve seen that more and more on some of the client work that we do, um, and some of the corporate work that we do is that there’s people are jumping in and out of the meetings and it’s welcomed and encouraged.

[00:24:37] So you might see different parts of the organization involved. Um, so that’s changed for sure. And I think just the topic of, of AI and then the topic of skills, this invites. a broader audience. And, um, and that’s positive. I think that’s very positive. Um, but at the same time, it can be overwhelming for a lot of providers to think about, okay, now I, I not only have to think about this stakeholder that is HR that we’ve been learning about and trying to understand, but now there are other buyers and influencers involved in this process.

[00:25:09] Um, so it’s, you know, I think there’s some excitement there, but it can also create, you know, I’ve seen some frustrations.

[00:25:17] JASON: So asking about that, one of the questions that always comes up is, where do we start? But I think one of the things that came up in your report is, where are you seeing people get stuck?

[00:25:27] MADELINE: Companies are getting stuck quite a bit, especially with skills. So I think what we’re seeing is that there’s a lot of interest and it’s being driven from the top. You know, obviously this is a broader topic than HR, so there’s interest, there’s an appetite to talk about skills, and what happens is companies start to have these conversations and then they freeze because they don’t know where to start, they don’t know if they should assess their own skills inventory and taxonomy and how to kind of approach that, or if they should start to look at a provider first, do they need to do their work for two years.

[00:26:01] We were working with a healthcare organization and they were all skills. I mean, Everything, this was the message from, you know, the top, we’re going to focus on skills. Everyone was on board. The messaging was already out. And they said that they would have to wait two to three years to do the skills work before they would start to look at technology.

[00:26:19] And to me, that’s stuck. That’s not taking a holistic approach to skills. That’s saying, okay, now we’re going to take this piecemeal approach and we’re going to do a skill strategy work. We don’t really know what that is. That’s not dynamic because you’re not using AI. We know that there’s. Going to be a lot of work and a lot of change that will need to happen.

[00:26:38] And then we’re going to look at technology and then we’re going to look at change management. I think that’s the wrong approach. I think it needs to be a holistic approach and that’s what transformation is. It’s, we’re going to look at the pieces we need. We’re going to look at where we’re at, but we’re going to invest in partners that can help us get there much faster than five years.

[00:27:02] LIGIA: So I’m going to take a quick turn here. There’s been a lot, um, in terms of evolving regulations, and I know that’s a top concern for AI and HR. And I know you’ve you’ve watched this, um, over the years. How has, um, this perception changed? Um, what are you seeing today in terms of, um, how organizations are addressing their concerns and getting ahead of the issue?

[00:27:26] MADELINE: Yeah, and there still are concerns. You know, I think they’ve been there before and we kind of knew all these regulations were coming and now they’re here and organizations were fearful before and they’re fearful now. But what we’ve seen is that there’s been a lot of maturity just in companies wanting to talk about AI, wanting to invest in solutions that have AI, and there’s a lot of interest there.

[00:27:47] So even with the regulations, we’re seeing that investment. In AI and interest in AI continues, um, you know, I think Keith Sonderling, Commissioner Keith Sonderling, who is the commissioner of the EEOC, he’s been a presenter at your Cultivate event, he’s fantastic, and I think he has helped our industry so much because he speaks so often, he is an advocate for AI when you’re thinking about ethical AI, he talks about, you know, how we can’t necessarily be fearful of these regulations and use them as a way to just hold anything that we’re doing.

[00:28:20] We need to actually think about the benefits, but also embrace AI. I mean, he even talks about kind of the audit trail that you get from AI and how, if you have that audit trail, you’re able to really see how decisions were made. There’s a kind of a backup that you have. And that’s tremendous for any, anyone within an organization making decisions around talent.

[00:28:41] And when you’re using a person in an individual and I’m making a decision around talent, there’s no audit trail. I might be taking notes in an interview on my notebook. Um, I might be texting. I don’t like this person. Um, there’s no audit trail and certainly not one humans would like to share. So. You know, I think having Commissioner Keith Sonderling in our industry has been tremendous. And I think that has impacted how a lot of organizations are thinking about AI right now.

[00:29:10] JASON: Since you mentioned Keith Sonderling, um, you recently shared the stage with him at an HR executive strategy summit, and he talked about the topic of DE& I. And, uh, talent intelligence has been shown to have an impact on D and I through explainable a I and a I matching and the ability to help with broadening the talent pool.

[00:29:34] But one of the things that he talked about was how. A lot of DE&I programming and initiatives are under attack in organizations. And depending on no matter what you do, you get a letter from the left, you get a letter from the right. Whichever way you stick your head up, there’s someone who’s coming to say something about it.

[00:29:51] So there’s, uh, A lot of kind of tampering down of programs and of conversations and of funding. And I think you, you’ve even done some research to this of coverage and talking points and of programming and marketing in the space of diversity going down in the market. But at the same time skills and the conversation of skills is, is rising.

[00:30:16] And there’s a lot of talk saying that DE&I will increasingly become just the way we work. And in my opinion, it’s becoming less and less of a program or an initiative and more operationalized through skills based approaches, which will open up opportunity and increase transparency and, you know, open up the aperture for inclusion.

[00:30:37] So I think that’s what’s happening. And I think that’s what. We’re seeing in organizations as they try to operationalize some of this and move away from some of the kind of programs or initiatives and try to do this at scale. But is that what you’re seeing or what you’re hearing from organizations? Or, you know, I, I think back to the presentation you gave at HR tech, where you talked about diversity being somewhat talk from the vendor space or from the organizations.

[00:31:01] And how are we actually addressing the issue? Do you think skills and talent intelligence has an opportunity to truly address the issue?

[00:31:09] MADELINE: I do. It’s, it’s interesting because in our research, we see DNI is less of a priority than it was in 2020 and 2021. And I know other analysts find similar results. And it’s disheartening, right?

[00:31:21] Because we saw this as becoming a key driver for investing in technology. We saw a lot of companies prioritizing this and then to see that kind of drop so significantly, um, is definitely disheartening. But I think there’s a few factors at play. I think one thing is a lot of vendors were using D&I as marketing messaging and didn’t have anything behind it, right?

[00:31:42] We’re not talking skills based. We’re not talking AI. We’re just talking, you know, a campus recruiting tool using D&I and not being able to support that. So I think there’s become some cynicism around vendors that are using D&I. Um, so I think that’s part of this investment. I think a lot of programs, your point and I think what Keith was talking about.

[00:32:02] You know, in terms of these initiatives and programs is a lot of those are just one offs. It’s like, let’s pay Korn Ferry, a great amount of money. Korn Ferry does a great job. I work for a company that got acquired by Korn Ferry. Um, but it’s usually. Um, a one time thing. It’s not a culture shift and it’s not, you know, systemic change.

[00:32:20] It’s just let’s bring in some consultants and let’s have them, you know, help us out. And there’s great work to be done there, but it’s again, not cultural. And what happens when you’re introduced skills and when you introduce talent intelligence transcribed is it can create systemic change because you’re creating a system and, you know, a way to approach talent where you’re seeing the full potential where.

[00:32:46] D&I is the outcome of that and it just becomes a way of life within talent. And you know, it’s, it’s not just, you know, the buzzword that you’re using, it’s actually the major outcome of what you’re getting. And when I go back again to that win win that we were talking about earlier, to me, it’s, that isn’t a win win, it’s the D&I.

[00:33:05] It’s to be able to say, okay, if I’m a candidate, we’ll use talent acquisition as the example here, if I’m a candidate and I’m applying for a job, Uh, an organization, and I really want to work for this company, and I’m very excited. So I’m going through the process. What makes a great candidate experience is if somebody gets the job.

[00:33:23] We know that, right? If they don’t get the job, it’s not as great of an experience. That’s not going to change with anything. That’s not going to change with skills or AI. But what can make a great experience if you don’t get the job is if you’re giving people a fair opportunity and you’re being transparent about it.

[00:33:39] About it and it’s consistent and you can do that through AI and skills. So if I’m the candidate, I really wanted to work for this company. I didn’t get the job and I didn’t get a rejection letter 90 days later on an email. Instead, it was transparent to me throughout. And I truly believe I was given a fair opportunity for this job.

[00:34:00] It just wasn’t the right fit at this time. That feels really much, much better than what happens for most organizations. And that, to me, that is DE&I. It’s how do we give job candidates, if we’re talking about talent acquisition, a fair and equitable opportunity to work for this organization, and then if we’re talking about talent management, how do we give individuals, whether they’re thinking about internal mobility, whether you’re thinking about performance management, um, how do we give them a fair and equitable experience?

[00:34:31] So it becomes systemic because. The idea of talent intelligence and the benefit of talent intelligence is you see people for who they are and you’re giving everyone that fair opportunity that you do not get from humans. Because we don’t have time.

[00:34:48] LIGIA: What’s coming up next for you in the talent research space? I know you’re writing an evolution of Talent Intelligence report. What does that cover?

[00:34:57] MADELINE: So the Evolution of Talent Intelligence report is exciting to me because last year was our first research report on this topic and we saw such, you know, interest from CHROs and we really wanted to do this primer of like what it is and then put a stake in the ground and say, it is not this.

[00:35:12] You know, Jason, to your point, like it is not, if you collect data, if you track data, if you’re have some access to data in some way that does not make you talent intelligence. So we wanted to put the stake in the ground and say, this is what it is. And these are the benefits of using it. And these are the use cases.

[00:35:29] When we look at the evolution, I think now we’re going to really kind of peel this back and say, okay, where are we at now? What are those roadblocks? Why do companies get stuck and how do we move from just being interested in seeing such. Interest from CHROs to now saying, how do we show the true benefits throughout the organization?

[00:35:49] You know, even the question around CIOs on CFOs and their involvement there. And, you know, I think we need to kind of kill that back a little bit too.

[00:35:55] JASON: So this has been such a wonderful conversation and always enjoy listening and learning from you. I appreciate how you always have your pulse on, uh, on the market.

[00:36:05] And to wrap up, I also appreciate how much you have your pulse on the, uh, practitioners working in this space. So we want to know, you know, what do you think is next for HR professionals working every day in this space? How do you see their roles evolving? What should they be on the lookout for in terms of trends and innovations as we think about the rest of 2024 and into the future of work?

[00:36:28] MADELINE: Yeah, it’s a great question. You know, I think the HR profession is amazing. I think HR professionals have to do so much more work than they had to do before COVID. Their work has doubled and tripled. Their benefits are not only to the organization and helping to feel growth, but also helping individuals too.

[00:36:47] I mean, it’s an amazing career. It’s an amazing profession. When I look at kind of what are these big trends and what’s coming next, I think we have to think about technology that’s going to support. And enable that profession and so often solutions are being designed and companies are evaluating solutions that really don’t have an understanding of what recruiters do of what HR professionals do.

[00:37:10] So, you know, it sounds very basic, but I think we have to look at kind of what. Solutions are going to, you know, impact and help HR to be those transformers as well. And that’s not going to come from a lot of the traditional providers in our industry. It just hasn’t, um, it’s, you know, this again has been decades and decades of this conversation of, you know, investing in HCM suites, it’s going to come from.

[00:37:36] These areas that drive transformation, everything we’ve been talking about, skills, strategic workforce, planning, talent, planning, AI, talent, intelligence, um, that’s what drives transformation. And that, you know, can help HR to really not only manage all these new responsibilities but really see a lot of outcomes within the organization.

[00:37:58] LIGIA: This has been so educational, Madeline. Thank you so much. We’ll probably have you back again, especially after the next report. We definitely want to see how this is evolving, but for now, this is a wrap. Thank you.

OUTRO

[00:38:11] Thanks for listening to The New Talent Code. This is a podcast produced by Eightfold AI. If you’d like to learn more about us, please visit us at eightfold.ai. And you can find us on all your favorite social media sites. We’d love to connect and continue the conversation.