[00:00:00] JASON: Today, we’re talking to Amanda Sorrento, Senior Vice President, People Platform and Organizational Architecture at Moderna. Moderna has an incredible AI adoption story. The pandemic put massive pressure on its leaders to quickly scale while delivering the best possible care for patients. It needed an efficient, fast, and high-quality way to hire.

[00:00:18] They also knew they were in a fierce battle for skilled talent. Initially, they were looking for a digital scheduling tool, but Amanda says it became clear that using town intelligence, with its data and ability to help them quickly pivot, could do so much more. As a result, Moderna grew from 500 employees and is still in growth mode with a renewed focus on internal mobility to create opportunities for employees to learn. Here’s how Moderna did it in this week’s episode of The New Talent Code.

[00:00:48] LIGIA: Okay. Thanks, Amanda, so much for joining us today on The New Talent Code.

[00:00:52] AMANDA: Happy to be here.

[00:00:54] LIGIA: Excellent. Well, let’s kick this off. You know, as a way of introduction, we are fascinated by nonlinear career paths where firm believers believe people should try new things in their careers and actually be hired for their potential, not necessarily for their credentials.

[00:01:06] So, tell us a little bit more about your career path. Did you always dream of being a senior VP of talent management and doing all those 20 years of wonderful things that you’ve done in HR?

[00:01:20] AMANDA: Yeah, that’s a great question, and I believe the same thing is true for you. Obviously, a career is just an opportunity to continue to learn and grow with every step that you take. So, did I dream of always being here? No. When I went to college, I had no idea what I wanted to be. I stumbled into HR, and it just honestly seemed to work for me.

[00:01:38] It seemed to make sense in my brain, so I just kept going. And to your point around nonlinear career paths, you know, I’ve followed on the surface, you may think I’ve followed a relatively traditional HR career path, starting as an HRVP and ultimately working kind of my way through.

[00:01:55] But there were just really purposeful moments in my career that were all about learning and growing through the difference that, um, so at 1 point, I stepped into payroll, never thought I would do payroll, um, in my career. But it was something that the business at the time really needed, um, and for me, it was a very different skill set to build.

[00:02:16] Even if I wasn’t going to be a payroll professional, it was about managing a process, untangling a really hairy problem, and infusing technology because that didn’t exist, you know, and that was part of the issue that we are having. Um, at other points in my career, I made very purposeful steps into different industries, which, again, are just all learning moments and learning opportunities.

[00:02:41] And what I always try to tell people is, um, don’t try to rush through, through the steps and everything else in your career. There’s a really long time, you know, 30 years; there’s plenty of time to accomplish everything you want. And so. Find the opportunities to learn, find the opportunities to grow, because you’re only going to get better, you know, and be better, you know, if you do so.

[00:03:02] So,

[00:03:02] LIGIA: I love it.

[00:03:03] JASON: So Amanda, thank you so much for joining us. You know, when we have conversations like this with leaders like yourself, we’re really looking for practical advice and real world examples of how leaders are trying to crack this new talent code. And I love your example of kind of your career path, because you talked about acquiring skills and addressing challenges potentially with new technology, but it really was around learning how to do new things to deliver to the business.

[00:03:31] You know, on the new talent code, we talk a lot about transformation, the pace of change, the speed of innovation, and delivering to the business. But when you put this in the context of Moderna and what you were faced with, I think we know a little bit about the story. We’d love to hear a little bit more about the story.

[00:03:51] Not only were you trying to deliver quickly. To the business and transform. You were also building a company. I mean, Moderna transformed from 500 people to 5, 500 people over the last four years. And you have this rapid growth with this innovation and new technology and new capability and new ways of addressing talent challenges.

[00:04:07] How did you go about this, and how did you start to impact this as a result of all of the things, all of the things, the technology, the new tools, the addressing the challenges, dealing with the pace of all of this?

[00:04:18] AMANDA: If I could just go back to the earlier point about careers just as a starting point and the importance of thinking about not necessarily what somebody’s been but the potential and the skills that they have. This is a perfect example because I don’t know very many people who have built a company from 500 employees.

[00:04:38] You know, now we’re actually rounding up 6,000 employees over a four-year span. You can’t hire for that on a piece of paper.

[00:04:44] LIGIA: No.

[00:04:45] AMANDA: That’s a perfect example. And I had no idea what I was stepping into or how to do this. You know, certainly when we joined, and to your point, it was kind of this very rapid acceleration.

[00:04:56] I don’t. I think we totally knew exactly where the trajectory was going to go, right? We had a lot of confidence in our technology, and we had the passion to really solve and leverage our technology for the betterment of the patients in the human health crisis that was taking place.

[00:05:13] And so, you know, at the time when I joined, you know, it was a little bit after the pandemic started, the company had started to scale a little bit. Um, but, um, it was really about leaning into, you know, kind of the unknown, leaning into the risk, um, and leaning in with that passion for our mission, which is really about helping the patients and just saying, we’re going to figure it out as we go.

[00:05:33] And we’re going to learn, and we’re going to pivot. Um, when we learn things. And we realized we’re not going in the right direction, um, we’re gonna, we’re going to try things. Um, and that, that held true, you know, in the HR space as well. Um, you know, we, we built organizations, we brought in talent, we rebuilt it once we learned, you know, where, where things were going, um, and we just weren’t afraid to, you know, kind of constantly lean in and, and constantly shift as the data was telling us we needed to shift.

[00:05:58] LIGIA: What made you actually discover the need for talent intelligence?

[00:06:06] AMANDA: So it’s actually a funny story, um, from the standpoint of kind of how we ended up in talent intelligence. What we knew was we needed to get more digitally enabled in our processes. We were hiring thousands of employees a year. And because we were such a small company and really essentially a startup at that time, we didn’t have very mature systems, very mature processes.

[00:06:23] Um, and so as we were in it, we were like, gosh, we’ve really got a, you know, kind of advanced. We’ve got to get more digitally enabled. We’ve got to get more efficient and how we’re doing this. And so the journey actually started looking for. Just a digital scheduling tool. Um, and so, so as we were going through that discovery of that, that’s when we, you know, learned about talent intelligence, um, and the power of AI.

[00:06:43] Because of the way we were scaling and growing, it just made sense. I think everybody knows what’s happening externally, too, in terms of the job market and how we have the lowest unemployment rates than any of us have seen in our careers.

[00:07:00] And so the war for talent is tremendous. Um, and so it was another way for us to really, you know, kind of advance. Um, and, and actually move a little, you know, kind of quicker and think differently, um, around how we brought people into, to the organization. Yeah,

[00:07:13] JASON: you say, you know, your organization grew from 500 to now rounding 6,000, and I heard you say the phrase, you can’t accomplish that at that speed, simply on a piece of paper. Right. We often say how this is a journey, and you go through iterative processes of transformation, and you kind of grow as you adopt and as you deploy and as you absorb and as you learn, you know, you mentioned originally it was efficiency and speed and scheduling and trying to just keep up with the pace.

[00:07:41] But how did you get from that to being able to say, we’re, we’re achieving this thinking beyond the paper and incorporating some talent, intelligence, and some insights and thinking about potential. Well, walk us through kind of that evolution.

[00:07:54] AMANDA: I mean, I think it’s all about, you know, kind of the data at the end of the day is how you keep advancing. Um, and so, as you know, you, you head into that journey, and then you’re constantly measuring it. You’re constantly assessing how you’re doing, and the more, you know, The data shows that, um, you’re having success and the ROI is there.

[00:08:11] The easier it becomes for everybody to lean into it, um, and really then, you know, adopted, and it becomes kind of a way of operating. We always talk about at the end of the day, you know, where we, we focus a lot on the core. Quality of hire here at Moderna. We want people to, you know, we want people who want to be at our company.

[00:08:28] We have very distinct values and mindsets that we like people to operate with. It’s how we think we’re going to do the best for patients at the end of the day. And that you can’t just get from a resume in somebody’s, you know, kind of 20-year history. That’s the stuff that causes you to look at it first of all, but it doesn’t tell you the whole story.

[00:08:51] And that’s where I start thinking about skills and talent intelligence. I almost think of culture as another skill for our company. It just starts to make sense when those are the values or the things you’re trying to bring through in your hiring process.

[00:09:07] So, yes, you know, I go back, you know, efficiency and speed were absolutely critical, but it was never at the risk of quality. Um, and as we built, you know, that quality, um, sentiment just grew and grew and grew in the, in terms of how we built it. Brought the company.

[00:09:22] LIGIA: so how did you get your leaders on board, um, with the need for talent intelligence and set expectations on, you know, what you were going to achieve? Was it a lot around this culture and quality?

[00:09:34] AMANDA: Yeah, it very much is. And, you know, I think it will be different for every company in terms of what those selling points are. Um, but because our culture is so important to us as an organization and so important to our success, it becomes the thing that really helps people understand and really helps people want to, um, if the data is there, and it’s, you can show success in that realm.

[00:10:00] You know, that’s really important to your company. And for us, it was culture. You can get people on board. So I think everybody has to figure out what’s most important to their company, and figure out how to measure its effectiveness and show people where you’re getting the ROI and the value for it.

[00:10:17] JASON: You mentioned learning as you go and leaning in and, um, pivoting potentially along the way. Sometimes, you know, you, you make a plan and you think you’re going in one direction, and sometimes the data leads you in a different direction, or you solve something that says, Oh, maybe we can solve something else with this.

[00:10:34] And you find additional use cases. Are there some things that you’ve done with this technology or some places you’ve gone that may have been part of the journey but also may have taken you in other directions?

[00:10:48] AMANDA: Yeah, you know, that’s a good question. And, you know, if I’m being totally honest, I still think we’re early in the journey, and we’re still figuring it all out. I won’t profess to say, you know, Moderna’s got it all, all figured out. I think some of the things that we are working towards, if you will, and we believe, kind of the data is going to show us that it’s the right thing for us.

[00:11:07] Um, but obviously, we’re going to go test and figure out, and we’ll probably have to pivot on how we. We go about doing it, um, necessarily, but, you know, one, um, internal mobility is really important to us as an organization. And again, if you think about kind of what has transpired, we had to hire so many people over a very short period of time.

[00:11:26] There was a lot of expertise. Now, we believe we’re at a pretty good scale. We’re going to still keep growing, but it’s not going to be the same growth rate in terms of employee base because of the way we want to stay purposefully lean as an organization.

[00:11:42] But now we have all these great talent that we’ve hired over the last 4 years, and we really want to, you know, shift our attention to that internal mobility, um, um, focus, um, we want to be able to develop and grow the careers. We also believe that, you know, because our culture is so important, people who have been living in it are always going to be our best candidates.

[00:12:02] Um, and so we are leveraging now, shifting the focus to leverage talent intelligence to really think about how we move people through the organization and starting to think less about exact jobs. But what are the skills needed in jobs again? Because we continue to scale and grow rapidly, a job as it sits today may not be the same job, you know, a year from now, two years from now.

[00:12:28] So it’s very hard to start thinking about succession planning to a particular job, whereas you start succession planning and thinking about the skills employees need to develop and start moving them like that. And then being able to create, you know, essentially this internal database of amazing talent that we have.

[00:12:46] We can actively, you know, grow and move through the organization. And so we’re just early on that journey, but that’s, you know, I think a way that I think we’re evolving our thinking and how we we use it.

[00:12:58] LIGIA: So obviously, you’ve grown really fast in the last four years, and that in itself brings change. But how much has the HR organization and the organization at large transformed, given the insights you’re getting from talent intelligence, given this move to becoming skills-based and providing opportunities to internal employees for internal mobility?

[00:13:20] Um, how has, what, what, what, uh, Parts of the organization, um, have transformed where Talents Intelligence has had the most impact in your mind.

[00:13:25] AMANDA: Yeah, it’s a really good question. And we’re a learning organization at our core. You know, if you read our mindsets, one of our mindsets is that we may not always be the smartest, but we’ll learn the fastest. And so, you know, with that, we’re constantly in a mode of transformation.

[00:13:41] Another mindset that we have is about pivoting fearlessly in the face of new data. When you combine those two things together, we’re constantly looking at how we transform as an organization. How do we evolve? We talk a lot about how we consistently build and rebuild the organization. I don’t know if I have a great answer for you, honestly, around any particular area that has shifted the most.

[00:14:09] More as it fits our Way of operating and our culture and how we think about, you know, we actually don’t use the word transformation very much because we just think of it as a normal part of how we, we operate. Um, and so, so we’re constantly learning. We’re constantly changing. We’re constantly, you know, kind of rebuilding if you will, um, and, you know, things like talent, intelligence, and skills and all of that is just another input to help inform.

[00:14:37] How we continue to how we continue to need to transform,

[00:14:37] JASON: So earlier.

[00:14:37] AMANDA: I don’t want to use that word. Yeah.

[00:14:37] JASON: the season, we were talking with Jason Averbook, a thought leader in this space. And he talked about creating a culture as the way he put it of changefulness. And when you design for change upfront, you don’t have to account for it. After the fact, because it’s built into the system, right?

[00:14:52] It sounds very similar to what you have at Moderna. Um, as you’re, as you’re doing this and you’re talking about hiring for potential and potentially planning for careers and career paths and job titles that are still surfacing and formulating as your organization is being developed. And as you’re figuring out where the organization’s going for the future, how are you?

[00:15:13] Cool. Taking a skills-based approach but still able to evaluate talent and hire, keeping in mind the culture that you have and assessing talent for, you know, are they the right talent for Moderna?

[00:15:26] AMANDA: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so important to us. Um, you know, we actually think, you know, your technical aptitude is as important as your, your cultural fit in the organization. And, you know, we’ve seen people who have are amazing, but they’re just maybe not, you know, quite right for, for Moderna. Um, and we always, you know, kind of really try to equally look at those two dimensions for every candidate we bring on board.

[00:15:50] We have pre-hire assessments that are strictly culture-based. Our interview guides have particular questions for every mindset. As we build a panel and ask people to play a different role through the panel, we assign mindsets to every interviewer, so we’re getting a really well-rounded look at a candidate.

[00:16:15] And so, you know, you might have 1 interviewer who takes on 2 of the mindsets, another interviewer who takes on another 2 minds, another 2 mindsets. And then we really culminate the process in a, um, an important consensus meeting at the end, where everybody has a big voice, right? I’m sure, you know, we’ve been in companies where, you know, kind of a hiring manager just makes their decision, and we go, we really listen to the voices of the folks.

[00:16:40] Full panel and have robust discussions around a candidate, not only in their technical ability to do the job but how we really think about them as a culture fit. And the truth is, too, we also enable HR. A lot in that too, as you know, kind of the stewards and the owners, you know, of, of caring for the culture, we let HR have a really big voice, and I shouldn’t even say HR has huge accountability in that we’re equally accountable with the business.

[00:17:14] If we hire somebody who is not a fit, we own it as much as the hiring manager owns.

[00:17:20] JASON: So is this also changing kind of the skills profile of HR? Is it changing the way HR partners, the business and how they manage some of these programs and processes

[00:17:30] AMANDA: Yeah, I would say so, um, honestly, and I think that’s one of the first things that new HR talent has to learn. It kind of shocked them a little bit, and they’ve got to become accustomed to this notion of accountability of the HR function. You know, we’re not accountable.

[00:17:48] Yeah. Of course, we’re influencers. I shouldn’t say we’re not influencers because that’s the best way to get, you know, um, the organization to come along with you is to influence them versus, you know, kind of hammering them. Um, but, you know, we don’t just stop at, you know, Influence, you know, if we in our, you know, kind of belief and our knowledge and the data, um, believe we’re heading down a wrong path, or we need to go a certain path, um, you know, kind of standing up and saying, I own this and even if my leader doesn’t want to move in that direction, I need to do what I can to get us to the place where I believe is, is fundamentally right.

[00:18:24] Um, and we, we deploy certain, you know, kind of additional, um, they’re like kind of some of the unsaid pieces, you know, the unwritten pieces of our culture, like escalation is a good thing. Um, and so let’s just say I’m working with, uh, a hiring manager, and I think we’re, you know, kind of at a rough, rough point where we just don’t, don’t Agree on a candidate, bringing it to our leaders is applauded.

[00:18:41] It’s not a bad thing. It’s a way of continuing to pull people in, tease it out, and get to the best answer for Moderna at the end of the day. And that’s very, very different from how I think a lot of other organizations operate, at least at this juncture in time. I hope more and more organizations realize the benefit of it.

[00:18:58] LIGIA: Absolutely. What goals did you set, or how did you define success once you had implemented them? How has that then evolved, you know, as you continue to grow, as you continue to, as you say, not transform but evolve as a company and, um, bring more talent and talent insights into the organization? Exactly.

[00:19:14] AMANDA: of hire. Um, that is, you know, we look very, you know, kind of deeply at the quality of hire. We’re actually working right now with our analytics team to develop our beliefs on how to measure that in the organization, which then enables you to start thinking about the quality of the interviewer, which then enables you to think about.

[00:19:30] How do you develop your hiring managers or your interviewers in a way that can bring forward that quality of hire? So, you know, it’s a it’s a full system if you will, but starts with with that metric, um, because then it helps you really understand what’s going on in the organization and what you can do more of.

[00:19:48] differently, whether it’s process-wise, whether it’s training-wise, um, whether it’s tech, no, how you leverage the technology, um, to just keep bringing, you know, kind of that metric higher and higher to levels of success.

[00:19:59] JASON: when you go through these journeys and kind of take on more transformative tools like talent intelligence that are continuously learning and updating and our dynamic, a lot of the talent processes increasingly become continuous because the data is dynamic. It’s continuous learning.

[00:20:17] There’s something new to see. So, as you’re evaluating your programs and processes, how are you checking in on performance and status as you’re thinking about it? Is there a certain period? Are you going in phases?

[00:20:29] We’ve heard other people doing waves. Do you have a certain approach to assessing, measuring, and managing success?

[00:20:38] AMANDA: Yeah, no, I don’t think we have a very defined, you know, kind of way of looking at it. Um, you know, I think you’re right. I think, you know, There’s so much here in terms of the way, you know, technology is exploding in the use of an I, and by the way, I’m so excited about it and how we, you know, really bring it into thinking about, um, talent.

[00:20:59] Very differently. Um, and I think it is all insert. It enables this very interconnected world that I think is so exciting. If you can start to understand and tease out what generates success for your organization, you can easily start deploying all of the solutions across all ends of the talent life cycle and all the processes.

[00:21:24] I guess our approach is we just wanna do it all, and we want to do it rapidly, and then we just wanna be this continuous learning machine. As we’re looking at that, um, I think we haven’t quite figured out if there’s gonna be a particular cadence or a particular approach, but we wanna get it all.

[00:21:37] And want to deploy kind of as much as we can because the technology is moving so quickly. So your ability to get real data, real intelligence, real measures, um, is just growing exponentially. And then I think our belief is we’ll just constantly be measuring and we’ll always be on this cycle of as the data tells us something we’re going to refresh as the data tells us something we’re going to refresh.

[00:21:58] Um, and so it’s going to be a never-ending, you know, kind of evolving cycle. I don’t imagine a world where we ever get totally status in what we’re doing. And I actually think, yeah, go ahead.

[00:22:08] JASON: that sounded like an approach to me.

[00:22:08] AMANDA: Okay, there you go.

[00:22:08] JASON: Yeah, that’s very good.

[00:22:08] LIGIA: I love your excitement around AI and what it can bring to HR. For those people—and Jason’s gonna laugh because I use this analogy a lot—for those listeners who are still afraid of the VCR, I mean, I’m sure when you started out on this journey, you know, you knew probably as much as they did about artificial intelligence and probably got some level of jitters.

[00:22:26] What is your advice to them? I mean, how did they get started? How did they get past this anxiety?

[00:22:30] AMANDA: Yeah, just dive in, um, and talk to people too. You know, I’ll be honest, um, I don’t know if I was ever totally afraid of it. And maybe that’s somewhat of, again, if I go to, you know, kind of who we are as an organization, um, we’ve had a long-held, you know, belief and mindset around, um, digital enablement. Um, our CEO, you know, was a very early, you know, kind of a believer in AI and what it could do, and he brought back the excitement.

[00:22:55] Of what it can do for our organization. Um, and so you kind of had like two choices. You could either jump in and say, um, I’m going to learn or, you know, probably have a question on, you know, kind of how do you move forward at Moderna when there’s such a palpable, um, desire, um, to, to really, you know, kind of move with the technology. But I didn’t know anything. That was the big piece for me. I was pretty clueless about, you know, kind of what AI was, what it could do. How did you even bring it to, um, to HR? And so, you know, kind of 2 things that I personally did was 1, start playing with it. Um, and then the second piece is talking to people who are also playing with it for the first time.

[00:23:38] And that sharing of ideas and, you know, kind of those light bulb moments when you’re like, Oh my God, wait, I can do that with this. That’s amazing. And it started simple. It started with things like, right? Oh, sorry. It started things with like writing a job description. You mean I didn’t have to spend, you know, 45 minutes laboring over a job description?

[00:23:59] I could put, you know, a bunch of things in, you know, chat GPT and it was going to spin that up for me? Amazing. And then once you, once you start doing that, like, then the road just, you know, kind of starts moving and then the possibilities become, become endless, um, on it. So. Dive in, just start playing, but play in a way, if you’re, if it is something that makes you nervous, play it, play in ways, um, that you feel are safe for you, um, because I think that will create, you know, kind of comfort, um, as well, that it actually isn’t a scary tool, it’s not here to take our jobs, there are responsible ways to use it, um, you know, You’re welcome.

[00:24:30] So that way, you don’t, you know, I know there’s a lot of concern about, you know, kind of discrimination and what can be, but there are very responsible ways to use it, and you just move as the technology evolves. You can get a little bit more progressive and more progressive.

[00:24:44] LIGIA: Love it.

[00:24:45] JASON: What feedback has been received from other users at Moderna? Has there been feedback from applicants and candidates or from managers? Are there any other comments from the organization about how they feel about using the tool?

[00:24:54] AMANDA: Yeah, I mean, internally, there’s a high level of buy-in. Um, we actually have, you know, um, uh, a strong partnership, um, with chat GPT. So we actually have our own, you know, kind of internal, um, chat GPT. Um, and we’re teaching everybody. Um, we have an AI Academy. So we look for everybody to go through AI training, um, uh, everybody in the organization, and then we’re teaching people how to write GPTs, um, so that way they can start deploying those, um, in HR, we’re writing a bunch of GPT’s, our vision is like, we have these bots that can, you know, essentially do a lot of the, the, um, HR work, you know, or, you know, kind of engagement with employees.

[00:25:32] That they may need. Um, and so I think that it’s just such a strong culture and the way we’re kind of really leaning in to teaching our employees and giving them opportunities to put it into the flow of work. Um, um, it brings a lot of excitement. You know, if I’m honest, there’s still a little skepticism around the kind of things that I believe that we can do.

[00:25:54] Um, I’d love to get to AI interviewing, um, at Moderna, and it’s my goal to get there, you know, kind of a conversation sooner versus later. And that’s something that people are like, wait a second here. You’re going to have. And I think for candidates, too, you’re going to have an AI do a first-round interview.

[00:26:08] But I think again, if people get into it more and more, Um, everybody’s going to get there, um, and get on board.

[00:26:15] LIGIA: So as you look back, um, you know, on this journey, just some practical advice for our listeners. What are some key learnings from your experience? What would you do the same? What would you do differently?

[00:26:27] AMANDA: Yeah, yeah. One of the biggest things that I would say, you know, to do is just make sure your implementation of this stuff is good. Um, you know, I think, you know, we had the vision, we had the energy, um, and we ran, you know, kind of, you know, Um, feet first into the ice cold lake, um, if you will. And I wouldn’t change that for anything.

[00:26:43] But I think we could have been, you know, 1 of the things that I continue to say is we should have just taken an extra moment and thought about how to, you know, how to get everything set up. Bring people a little bit further along in the journey because that is something that we’ve had to, you know, kind of redo, um, you know, as we brought talent intelligence and, um, you know, there wasn’t an immediate adoption or just even the activities that need to happen to be able for the system to learn from it.

[00:27:09] We’re now in the path of redoing that and pushing people to use it 100 percent of the time because it’s only going to be as good as people input information into it. And so when it’s only happening half the time, we’re missing half the information.

[00:27:27] So, really make sure you have a strong change management plan and that you take enough time to get everybody on board. You know, I think people were mentally on board, but it was the change in the practices and what it meant and getting people to adhere to it that we could have done differently.

[00:27:43] But we’re gonna get there. We’re doing it now, so it’ll be good.

[00:27:47] JASON: Well, as you’ve walked us through the journey and shared your story with us, we really appreciate you taking the time. You know, one of the things you said was very important to you was exploring on your own and learning, but also exploring with others and learning from others, and hopefully, the folks out there listening have learned.

[00:28:05] alongside you and listened to you during the course of this interview. So, we appreciate you coming and sharing your story with us. We appreciate maybe the small role Eightfold had as a part of the journey, but when we talk about this, the pace of change and the speed of delivery and dealing with innovation and delivering to the business, you’re living this every day.

[00:28:23] So, you know, we thank you for all of the work you’re doing, and we appreciate you sharing the story.

[00:28:28] AMANDA: Happy to. It’s been a pleasure to be able to come talk to you guys.

[00:28:31] LIGIA: Thanks so much, Amanda, that was awesome. Love the energy.