The collaborative advantage: Connecting teams through shared intelligence

Rebecca Warren, Shannon Taylor, and Matt Morgan discussed the challenges and benefits of breaking silos in talent acquisition and HR. They emphasized the importance of shared intelligence and collaboration, highlighting the need for a unified data source to align organizational goals. Shannon shared her experience with intake meetings to ensure alignment between recruiters and hiring managers. Matt stressed the significance of using AI to inform skill requirements and shift the narrative towards future-forward thinking. They agreed that curiosity and adaptability are crucial for success, advocating for a focus on outcomes rather than rigid job descriptions.

Introduction and Housekeeping

• Rebecca Warren welcomes everyone to the April edition of the Talent Table, focusing on collaborative advantage and shared intelligence.
• Rebecca introduces herself and her role at Eightfold, emphasizing talent-centered transformation through AI and people.
• Housekeeping items include using the Q&A widget, exploring the resources section, and registering for future events.
• Rebecca introduces the speakers, Matt Morgan and Shannon Taylor, and invites them to introduce themselves.

Speaker Introductions

• Matt Morgan introduces himself as a doctoral candidate at the University of Pennsylvania, researching organizational development and learning.
• Matt has 25 years of experience in talent strategy development and skills-driven job architecture.
• Shannon Taylor introduces herself as the Head of Global TA for Catalyst Brands, including Brooks Brothers, Eddie Bauer, Lucky Arrow, and JC Penney.
• Shannon has 16-18 years of experience in the talent acquisition space.

Personal Silos and Frustrations

• Rebecca asks the speakers about personal silos that drive them crazy.
• Shannon shares her frustration with her children’s conflicting sports schedules and the lack of communication from coaches.
• Matt discusses the lack of collaboration with his wife on home improvement projects, leading to delays and inefficiencies.
• Rebecca shares her frustration with inconsistent clocks in her house, highlighting the challenges of physical silos.

Physical Silos and Ideal Stockpiles

• Rebecca asks the speakers what they would stockpile in an ideal silo to make their daily lives easier.
• Matt suggests the ability to find specific talent with the right combination of experience and skills at the right time.
• Shannon humorously suggests a silo of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, emphasizing their delightful nature.
• Rebecca shares her preference for stockpiling music, as she believes a world without music would be painful.

Collaboration and Shared Intelligence

• Rebecca discusses the importance of collaboration and shared intelligence in talent teams.
• She highlights the issue of redundant work and misaligned priorities due to siloed approaches.
• Rebecca emphasizes the need for unified strategies and shared intelligence to stay competitive.
• The conversation shifts to the role of AI in connecting fragmented tools and resources.

Challenges in Data and Tools

• Shannon discusses the challenges of different data definitions in talent acquisition, leading to miscommunication and unmet expectations.
• Matt highlights the need for HR to be strategic thought partners and the importance of aligning expectations with business leaders.
• Rebecca shares her experience with multiple recruiters using different tools, leading to duplicate work and inefficiencies.
• The speakers discuss the importance of consistent data and tools in breaking down silos.

Cultural and Behavioral Changes

• Rebecca emphasizes the importance of cultural norms and ways of working in breaking down silos.
• Shannon shares her experience of being trained to do her own research before seeking help, which later led to being perceived as uncollaborative.
• The speakers discuss the need for organizations to create a space for collaboration and to set clear expectations for ways of working.
• Matt highlights the importance of vulnerability and empathy in fostering collaboration.

Establishing Expertise and Credibility

• Shannon discusses the challenge of establishing expertise and credibility in talent acquisition.
• She emphasizes the importance of making recommendations rather than decisions and building credibility through data.
• The speakers discuss the need for HR to be seen as strategic partners and the importance of aligning with business objectives.
• Rebecca shares her experience of using AI tools to align on data and improve collaboration.

Using AI and Technology for Alignment

• Shannon discusses the role of AI in capturing and recapping intake meetings to ensure alignment.
• The speakers emphasize the importance of human involvement in the initial alignment process.
• Matt highlights the potential of AI to inform skill requirements and shift the narrative around talent needs.
• Rebecca discusses the importance of focusing on outcomes and using data to challenge traditional hiring practices.

Future-Forward Thinking and Skills

• Matt emphasizes the need for business leaders to think differently about skills and talent needs.
• The speakers discuss the importance of being future-forward and adapting to evolving work processes.
• Rebecca highlights the shift from crystallized knowledge to fluid knowledge and the importance of curiosity and agility.
• The conversation concludes with advice for leaders to focus on outcomes and be open to new ideas and approaches.

Rebecca Warren 0:01

Hey, hi, and hello, everyone. Welcome to the April edition of the Talent Table. Super excited to be here today to talk about the collaborative advantage: connecting teams through shared intelligence. I have two fabulous speakers with me today, Shannon and Matt, who we will introduce in just a second. I am Rebecca Warren. I have been here at Eightfold for about five and a half years now. I host the Talent Table, and my role inside of Eightfold is working on Talent Centered Transformation, so looking at AI and talent and people all through the lens of humanity, as opposed to looking at job descriptions or spreadsheets. So let us do a few housekeeping items first. So if you want to do things, click the widgets on the screen, poke around, see what happens. If you want to ask things, use the Q&A; pop your questions in there. We’ll take a look; if it makes sense to insert them into the flow of the conversation, we will. Otherwise, we will work to answer them off-webinar, or maybe in a LinkedIn or a blog post. If you want to read things, check out the resources section. We’ve got some articles, guides, and other—as I call it—”nerdy goodness,” to get your brain firing. And then for future events, and if you want to register for additional Talent Tables, click the link to sign up for next month’s activities and other things that we have going on. Alright. So without further ado, I want to flip it to our speakers to introduce themselves. So how about Matt, we start with you, and then Shannon, we’ll go over to you, and then we’ll get started with the question of the month.

Matt Morgan 1:52

There you bet. Nice to meet everybody. My name’s Matt Morgan. Leo, two dogs, no kids. Based in the DC/Baltimore area. Five years at Accenture, 25 years in the talent strategy/development space. So I do all things related to skills-driven or job architecture and various different talent technologies over the years, but all in service of delivering a better employee experience through the use of skills. That’s what I do. I don’t get enough of it in my daylight hours. I’m a doctoral candidate at the University of Pennsylvania, researching org development and learning. So I’m a proper geek in the space. And love to… love to be here. Shannon?

Shannon Taylor 2:30

Thank you. And good hello, everyone. And excited to be here and have this conversation; been looking forward to doing this for a while. So my name is Shannon Taylor. I am the Head of Global TA for Catalyst Brands. We are a family of brands that include Brooks Brothers, Eddie Bauer, Lucky Brand, and Aeropostale. I’ve been in the talent acquisition space for, I don’t know, 16, 17, 18, somewhere in there… many years. I stopped counting. I think the grays that I have on my chin can probably start accounting for me. But you know, my job is global TA, so it’s about attraction to Day One for our candidates, and everything in between. And looking forward to sharing today.

Rebecca Warren 3:13

Alright, so glad both of you are here. I think we’re going to have a great conversation. So before we kick it off, if you have attended a Talent Table in the past, you know we do a question of the month. Sometimes it pertains to the topic; sometimes it doesn’t. This one today is going to be a little tangentially connected because we’re talking about collaboration—or the lack thereof—so thinking about silos and things that are separate. So our question that we’re going to ask today to our panelists here: so, in your personal life, what is a silo or a lack of shared intelligence or a shared connection that drives you crazy? So maybe you and your partner both buy milk because you didn’t have a shared list, or something like that. So I would love to hear what… what in your personal life might be a silo that drives you crazy. Anybody got one for this one?

Shannon Taylor 4:18

So I would say one is: I have multiple children. So I have three kids, and they have three activities. And the silo of those activities drives me absolutely batty, to the point where in some cases, I’m trying to carpool one child over here because the other one forgot they had this over there, or their coach didn’t send out an email about a game that they were going to play in, the time changed. I become… my wife and I both become just running around, like… so the silos of our kids’ events…

Rebecca Warren 4:55

It can just… it’s just… and they never work to make sure that all sports are doing the right things at the right time, right? They’re all at 6:42, and you’re missing dinner and you’re running them to three different places. I totally… I totally get that. Three kids as well.

Matt Morgan 5:10

So, alright, mine’s… mine’s also on the home front. My wife and I are both academics by background, and when it comes to anything, but especially home improvement, if we’re doing any kind of a major project around the house… I grew up on a farm, but I’m also an academic, so I’m pretty handy. I can get around the house, that kind of thing. But we both kind of take ideas away, come up with our plans, and we don’t really collaborate on them. So then it’s like, I’ll be… and I’m going to Home Depot, I’ve already got the list of materials, the project has started. And she’s like, “Hold on, hold on, hold on, we need to come together.” I’m like, “Okay, here we go.” Three weeks delayed, and the plan is blown, and it’s the whole thing. So totally my fault, but it happens.

Rebecca Warren 5:51

You’ve got a full-on chart, right? You’ve got the RACI chart, all that kind of stuff. I love it. So I was thinking about this one, and so I’m going to see if I can share my screen to show you what drives me crazy that’s siloed in our house. So let’s see. I never know if this is going to work. So let’s see if I share my screen… Hang on a second here, because I was looking around as I was thinking about this question, and I noticed some things that did not connect. Okay, I don’t know if I can figure this out. Okay, I’m not going to share it because it’s too complicated. However, as I was standing in my kitchen last night and I was looking around… and you’ve got the microwave clock, and you’ve got the stove clock, and you’ve got the clock that sits for us in between the kitchen and the living room. None of them are the same. I’ve got a digital clock—and I’ll see… I’ll send out, maybe I’ll send out the picture afterwards. I’ve got a digital clock in the kitchen; the microwave says 6:23. I’ve got on the… on the stove clock, it says 6:19 Monday, September 27, or something like that, because it just makes up whatever it wants. And then on the analog clock that I have sitting in the living room, it says that it is 6:26. Like, everything in my house, time-wise, is a lie. So I never know… like, I’m always just looking at my watch, because all of the clocks, they don’t match, they have different dates. Drives me bonkers. And you don’t align… for, like, a day, and you know how hard it is to take down the one that’s up on the wall, right? So we’re like, “Okay, we just know that that one’s fast.” We change the other ones, and then, like, three days later, completely different. And yeah, and you just kind of ignore them. And then people come in our house and they’re like, “Y’all are a bit bonkers.” We’re like, “Yeah, we just ignore them.” Like, it’s dumb, but it’s really hard to get them to align and stay aligned. So my clocks… So okay, we’re going to do one other quick one on that one because it was a fun idea to think about. So we’re talking about virtual silos, right? Like things that don’t align. Now let’s talk about physical silos. So, Matt, you talked about growing up on a farm. We had relatives who were on the farm, grew up in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest. And so silos are a real thing, and that was always a big deal when we would go to our relatives’ house to climb the silo, get a picture from the top, right? So let’s talk about an actual silo now. Like if you could fill an actual silo… it couldn’t be filled with money or valuables. But what if you could stockpile something in your silo to make your daily life easier, better, or just more delightful? What would you put in your silo? That’s a hard one.

Shannon Taylor 9:00

Matt, over to you, sir.

Matt Morgan 9:04

My initial reaction went to, like, capacity, but that is, like, so vague. In consulting… about half my career now in consulting… and we always have challenges finding the right depth of talent for the right project, or the right combination of experience at the right point in time, right? So if I had that secret sauce to be able to find that specific talent… we’re able to borrow people from other programs and shake people loose, like anything. But like, if I had an ability to just put my hand on, “Hey, I need these three people with this depth of experience with this combination of skills at a given point in time,” that… that would be ideal. That would be ideal.

Rebecca Warren 9:49

Oh, very worky-worky. Alright.

Shannon Taylor 9:54

So I’m gonna tell you, mine is definitely something that’s more delightful. So you know, I would have a silo of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Like, when I tell you… I have loved them since I was a kid, and they are just delightful. Like, I have this saying in my house: “When in doubt, peanut butter and jelly it out.” Like we will just… it is just… it is just the best thing going. So just give me a silo of those, and life will be great.

Rebecca Warren 10:25

I think that’s amazing. My husband is a peanut butter fan. Like, he’ll go and get a scoop of peanut butter. He has his own peanut butter jar. He gets a scoop. It has to be Skippy, Extra Crunchy. Like, there are rules around that; you don’t touch his jar. But I love PB&J sandwiches in a silo. That’s amazing. And I think, you know, for me, mine would be a little bit harder to, like, nail down. But mine would be music. Like, music just drives me. I think a world without music would be maybe the most painful world to live in. So I don’t know how… I mean, I don’t think I would throw in a bunch of DVDs or CDs or, you know, cassette tapes. I don’t think I would put actual physical things in there—not DVDs, but music would be what fills my silo. Alright, so should we talk about the worky-work? What do you guys think? Should we actually talk about collaboration and taking things out of silos? Alright, so when we were thinking about what this could look like in our conversation, right, looking at talent teams that are trying to solve problems—there are amazing folks out there trying to do the right thing for their teams, for the organization, for the world, right? But too many talent teams are solving the same problems in isolation. I think most organizations see things that are being duplicated across the company. So TA is looking for one thing. HR is planning for something else. Business Leadership is operating on a third set of assumptions. So the siloed approach really doesn’t just create redundant work. I think it fundamentally slows down the organization and makes it really hard for folks to align on the true workforce priorities. So when we think about staying competitive in a really crazy world right now, we have to help organizations move towards unified strategies where folks are operating from the same overused playbook, right? Or shared intelligence. So increasingly, that shared intelligence is continuing to move. It’s dynamic. It’s being shaped. It’s being surfaced by AI in real time. So let’s take a look at what that looks like. Where businesses have their own tech stacks, they have their own data, we’ve got teams who are trying to do the right thing. So maybe the first step for us to dig into and things to think about is that our tools—our fragmented tools or resources—might be that first barrier to speed, right? And it’s not just that systems are separate, but it’s that they don’t talk to each other, they don’t share, and they don’t learn from each other. So without connecting those signals across the system, we’re spending a lot of time stitching things together. So I would love to hear your perspective—and I’m not going to shoot this to anybody, so whoever wants to jump in: where have you seen the most friction when the talent teams and the broader businesses are making decisions by looking at different data? What do you think about that?

Shannon Taylor 13:53

You know, when you think about sort of the difference in data, we innately start with those different pieces of the business because they’re looking at it from different angles, right? And so… and nine times out of 10, they’re looking at it because they use separate systems, in general to what you just mentioned. But where I’ve seen it come together is even in some of the more basic things, particularly related to talent acquisition. And I would even say, in the number of organizations’ headcount versus the number of open jobs versus the number of actual open… actually, say “open seats,” and then actual jobs that we’re actually working on. And so you’ll find that in some ways, the business can say, “Well, we have an X amount of open… let’s say 100 roles open.” And that very well may be true. But in talent acquisition, those 100 roles really mean that not all 100 roles actually exist in the middle somewhere. And so you have this sort of friction that comes into play because that data is in silos, and the view of the different parts of the business see them differently, that it can create some miscommunication and misalignment and unmet expectations, because each group is sort of reading off the same sheet of music, in some cases, but looking at different notes.

Rebecca Warren 15:22

Well, and I think to that a little bit more, right? Even though you have X number of positions on a page somewhere, they’re not all being worked, right? They’re not all open. And everybody—even, I know from my time in TA—people have a different definition of what an open position looks like, right? Like a hiring manager says an open position is the minute that it gets approved, whereas the recruiter says, “Oh, no, no, this, to me, isn’t an active req until you and I have connected, we are on the same page, and I start working on the req.” So you don’t even have the same definition from the same data on what an open position is. 100%.

Shannon Taylor 16:00

And that’s where this, sort of, the—I call it sort of the friction—comes in. Yeah. Because the leader’s like, “Well, where are my people?” And the recruiter’s like, “Well, what are you talking about? I haven’t even…”

Rebecca Warren 16:10

“…started working on your req yet, because you haven’t had time in your schedule for me to meet with you,” right? Right, exactly. Matt, what do you see when you’re thinking about the consulting space?

Matt Morgan 16:20

Very similar. I mean, the clients I work with, there’s this common disconnect of the business is looking to solve a problem, right? And sometimes they will come in and say, like, “Hey, I need a headcount to do this,” right? But more often it’s “I’m trying to deliver on this outcome” or “I’m trying to increase throughput in this area,” or something like that. And that’s where it’s starting, right? And so I think many of your good recruiters, your HRBPs, can help solution that, right? And very often it may resolve in a req. But starting from, like, what the end outcome is, and trying to work back from that on the right solution… I think sometimes the business, when they engage HR, they have, like, a point of view, right? It’s like, “Well, I just need to hire somebody to go do this. And that’s what I need,” right? It’s like, “Well, maybe you do, maybe you don’t. Maybe it’s not just one person. Like, let’s actually let HR be a strategic thought partner in that process, enable HR with the data to do that, but also speak the language of the business.” And I see where there’s often a friction point there on, like, alignment on expectations with the engagement with HR, alignment on expectations of what the options might be. Because I, at least in my experience—I’m biased, right? I came up as an HR practitioner myself—I think our HR practitioners are brilliant, and they want to help the business, right? We’re all in it, all in the same boat, right? And I’m a believer that this high tide rises… all the boats rise, right? So it’s like, we can help, right? But you’ve got to have the data to do that, and then you’ve got to have the will on both sides to have that collaborative conversation and not just be a transactional relationship.

Rebecca Warren 17:53

As we think about the tools and the things that people are doing, I know I would find in my time in TA where I would say, like, “Okay, so I’ve got one recruiter who’s over here using this tool, and I’ve got one recruiter over here who’s using this tool, and then I’ve got the hiring manager.” I can’t tell you how many times I would find multiple LinkedIn licenses across the organization, and they’re all looking at different candidates or looking at different data. They’re putting together different spreadsheets. You’ve got hiring managers sending stuff to candidates. You’ve got… I mean, it’s… it’s really crazy when you think about the number of tools today that people are using. We do a thing inside of our team where we say, “Hey, what kind of AI experiments are you using, and what are you doing?” And it’s very interesting because we’re all using different AI tools. We’ve got Claude, and Perplexity, and Gemini, and ChatGPT, and, like, we’re all doing different things. But it’s interesting because we end up finding that there are a lot of synergies in the experiments we’re running and the things we’re doing, but we’re not talking to each other about it. We’re doing duplicate work using different tools that aren’t talking to each other, right? So that might be the first step, is: how do we think about the actual data that we’re looking at, the tools that we’re using, the ways that we’re using technology? How do we help get those pieces together to make sure that we’re all looking at the same information, as you said, Matt, the same way? Like, what outcomes are we trying to look at? Like, I think my perspective: nobody comes to work to suck, right? Nobody wants to say, you know, “I’m going to get up and do a bad job today.” But it’s hard sometimes when there isn’t that connection of the data, of the tools, and the communication. So I think… so let’s dig into that a second. Why is it hard for organizations to break this habit of solving—especially talent problems—in silos? So is it a tech issue? Is it a culture issue? Is it both? Is it neither? Like, why is it hard? This isn’t a new thing, right? This has been happening for a super long time. So why is it so hard? What is it? Is it culture? Is it tech?

Matt Morgan 20:10

Is it both? Is it neither? I don’t think it’s a Field of Dreams. I don’t think you can just plug in a new tool and it solves everything, right? Like…

Rebecca Warren 20:19

“I want someone to come out of the cornfield in the worst way. Come on, solve my problem.”

Matt Morgan 20:24

It’s… I mean, I like your references there. I call the different tools… like, we’re the same, right? Like I use Claude in my daily life. I use Enterprise GPT in my daily life. And it’s just… it’s the way of working now, right? For most organizations and most folks, that’s one step. The behavior change that has to come along with that for all parties involved… that’s the hard part, right? Like, like, we are… yeah, we are conditioned to learn. We’re conditioned to behave in certain ways for a variety of reasons, and breaking down some of those habits, right, and learning how to work and communicate differently is a struggle. At least… I mean, Shannon, I’m curious your take, but that’s… that’s been my experience.

Shannon Taylor 21:05

Yeah, I think there’s… so one of the interesting things around being in HR and in talent acquisition is we have this unique role within an organization where you have people that believe that they can do the job better than you can, right? And in some cases, we have empowered the behavior in a way that can sometimes be detrimental to our abilities as a function to collaborate effectively, and then be seen as those individual leaders that have those… to be those strong thought partners. And so it’s a learned behavior over time. Right? When I think about, you know, if we look at our HR practitioners, none of our HR practitioners—I’m going to say not all, but most—don’t necessarily go into, let’s say, technology, and tell them how to code, right? Right. You know, a TA recruiter doesn’t go into the operations team and tell them how to sell a product, right? Reversely, what you have is you have those individual leaders that will come to HR and say, “Here’s how you need to performance-manage people,” or “Here’s how you need to go and find talent… because, and I need a tool to do it,” right? And so I think particularly what we… what we have to do, and how do we move down those silos, and how we find our… move ourselves out of the way of the multiple systems and the disparate data, is to try to find a way to create a singular look at that data. So for example, you know, we can’t control… we can only control our controllables as it relates to the business, right? Because as a function, we’re there to support the business and enable the business. And so within that, one of the things that I’ve seen successful and has worked over time is taking that data and putting it into a place and then leveraging that as a dashboard. People use dashboards, but it could be just a quick report out. Doesn’t have to be, you know, really, really complex. That then aligns the information that they have to the information that you have, that creates a unified understanding. Because otherwise, they’re not going to change their work behavior necessarily. It can be very difficult as an organization, as it relates from a budget perspective, to go out and buy… once, you know, let’s call it the “one-stop-shop” solution, which no one’s ever going to be happy with, right? And they’re going to use their own data anyway. But if you can try to create a mechanism that kind of sits in between that, that creates that conversation and creates that partnership, and then also helps you build that credibility across the different siloed functions, I think that’s really the only way, which is sort of what Matt mentioned around the ways of working, that we ultimately get to a place of limiting… reducing the silos as much as we can so we can try to be as aligned as possible as we all kind of march toward the same goal of, you know, achieving the business objectives.

Rebecca Warren 24:13

Yeah, I think the culture piece really matters, and I don’t know that we’ve spent enough time in the past focusing on that. I’ll give you an example. It was super interesting when I first came to Eightfold. Came from TA. Did not know tech. Did not know customer success. That was my first role inside of Eightfold; I thought I was being looked at for a TA role. And they said, “Hey, we need to build out customer success. What do you think?” And I was like, “I don’t know,” right? So when I joined the team and I was working with customers and trying to do my best in a small startup, right, like there was a lot of stuff going on. And I had one leader who said to me—which, at the time, I didn’t appreciate, but now I do—where she said, “Okay, before you throw something in the Slack channel and ask the question… like, ‘I need to find X’ or whatever… do the work yourself. Figure it out, right?” So I’m going down the rabbit holes, I’m asking questions, I’m throwing it across the wall, and before I put it in that final Slack channel, I had done my due diligence. I had done my homework. I had asked the questions. So when I got to that Slack channel or those office hours, like, I could say, “Here is the stuff that I did,” right? So at the time, I hated it because I’m like, “I just need somebody to tell me the answer.” But it forced me to be more resourceful and think differently. So that was my way of working, was: “I’m going to figure this out, and I’m only going to go to the Slack channel, to office hours, or to my leader when I feel like I absolutely have no other place to go.” Now, we got a new leader, and the leader gave me feedback that I was not a collaborative person because I didn’t come to them right away to ask them for help. And they’re like, “Well, your colleague does that.” And I’m like, “But wait, my colleague started after I did, and this is how I was trained in the organization, so I feel like I’m doing the right thing and only bringing stuff to you when things are really on fire, and now you’re offended because I haven’t pulled you into the conversation before,” right? That cultural piece is really important. And so I think figuring out, how do we break that down, setting those collaborative rules, right? Like, what does that look like? How do we make it okay to collaborate with folks, with your manager, with your leader, with your colleagues? Like, nobody wants to feel dumb, right? And say, like, “Oh, I brought you something,” and they’re like, “Oh, well, why did you bring that to me? You should have done this first,” right? So that culture piece, I think, is really critical to be able to say, “This is how we’re going to work. These are the ways of working. Here’s where you can get information. Here’s how we’re going to work together. As your leader, here’s how I’m here to support you. As an employee, here are the things that I need in order to make sure that we’re all, first of all, playing from the same set of cultural norms.” And then let’s dig into… so that… so I’m just going to leave that there for a second before we go into the data and the single source of truth kind of stuff. Any other thoughts or comments on that about culture and ways of working? Because I think that’s really, really critical, especially today, when things are moving so fast.

Shannon Taylor 27:12

No, I think you hit it. I mean, it is definitely creating a space to do it is important. And if you don’t have that, it’s hard to go anywhere from there. Go ahead, Matt.

Matt Morgan 27:24

Looping back to where we started on silos. I feel like sometimes, any of us, regardless of your organization, we come in with a set of… it’s bias, but it’s assumptions, right? Like, we may assume that someone has gotten as far in solving a problem as they can, and now they’re reaching out for help. Or we may assume they’re not self-sufficient. Or we may assume they’re a collaborative person, right? All of those things are probably true, right? So I think an acknowledgment of the human being, acknowledgment of the culture, is all important. I think also, there’s a vulnerability component there of like, it’s okay to just throw something on the wall, see if it sticks, let people throw rocks at it. Being empathetic, making sure you don’t back people off from reaching out for help in the future, that kind of thing, right? Like, check your ego at the door, check your name tag at the door. Let’s figure it out at the door.

Rebecca Warren 28:37

Well, and to your point earlier, we have so many tools today where you can do intelligence around a particular topic so fast, right? So let’s assume that if we have the tools in the organization, how can we make something better? And let’s not spend a lot of time spinning in place when somebody might have the answer faster. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I think we’re aligned that we need to make sure that people are collaborating and connecting, and that there is a table stakes on what that looks like. So now let’s talk about—and you started to talk about this earlier, Shannon—that source of truth, whatever that looks like. Let’s talk a little bit about where that lives and how we agree on what that looks like. Because, you know, we talk about a single source of truth all the time now. That’s a foundation to make sure that your data or your information is consistent, and everybody goes to the well for that. But in the past, and thinking about TA or TM, we’ve typically called that container your HRIS, your HCM system, the source of truth. But in today’s day and age, I don’t know that a single source of truth is a system of record. I feel like it’s broader than that. It’s a system of intelligence. It’s being fed by a whole lot of different things. So let’s talk about that source of truth, for that foundation. Like, does… first of all, how do… let’s think about that statement. What do you guys think about when we say a single source of truth? Is that realistic? Is that real? Is it your HRIS or your HCM, or is it something else? Like, what do we think about when we say your single source of truth?

Shannon Taylor 30:16

So I kind of thought of a definition of what I would… what I believe it to be. And, you know, I’m listening. I always like to check my gut, though, so I could be completely wrong. But this is kind of how I would define a single source of truth. To me, it’s a unified, agreed-upon set of information. Yeah. Doesn’t come from a singular place, but it’s a unified set of information that we can all agree is what we will use as our baseline. Yep. And leveraging that helps sort of what I call, kind of keep it simple, stupid, right, which is the KISS method. Yeah, yeah. We don’t have to figure out, how do we redefine our HRIS system, or what do we repoint our learning management system? But if we can… we can take that data and unify it, and agree collectively, getting everybody in a room and have some radical candor about the data, and walk out of there holding hands, saying, “Okay, we can all agree this is going to be the baseline forward.” I think that’s how you get to a… that’s what I would sort of define as, you know, that single source of truth.

Rebecca Warren 31:35

Okay, Matt, before I go to Shannon, I want to dig into that a little bit more. So as we think about that, so are you… when you think about that, are you saying we’re going to have these seven pieces of tech that we’re going to use, right? Like, is it we’re all going to use Claude, or we’re going to use whatever AI tool you want, but this is the… this is the container we’re going to keep it in? Like, how are you thinking about that when it comes to actual tools?

Shannon Taylor 32:00

Yeah, so AI is a beautiful thing because it’s helped sort of streamline this… the ability to sort of create a, let’s call it, a single source of truth, right? Whereas you can… you can take the data that you use. So let’s just say if you have a system that you can pull out and export into an Excel, you can export it into Word. But if it’s sort of table format, you can then take that information, compile it into said AI tool and say, “Create me a report taking these information data points. And this is your prompt.” You consistently use that prompt, it will consistently put out the report based on the change in data that you can all agree on as a single source of collective information that you can all use going forward. Now, the advances of technology have helped us get there faster. That would have been a manual process that we would have a coordinator or data analyst or somebody writing code and writing scripts within Excel to pull from this table and that table and then create this. But now you can sort of do it relatively, you know, quickly, leveraging some of the AI tools that are out there to kind of create that combined data set.

Rebecca Warren 33:18

Okay, so the two things I’m going to take away from that, I think… well, there’s a lot to take away from that, but those two things I really like, where you’re talking about consistent prompts and consistent criteria. So it’s less about maybe the sources that that comes from, but it’s how are we analyzing that information to get to the answer? Does that sound correct? Does that sound like what you’re saying? That’s right. That’s right. I love that. Okay, Matt, what do you think on all that?

Rebecca Warren 33:51

Oh, there you are. Your mouth is moving. We don’t hear anything. Okay, seems like Matt’s got some technical issues. I see the background changing, but I don’t see or I can’t hear you. Okay, Matt, we’ll have you figure that out. Shannon, you and I are gonna continue on here. So, okay, so Matt, hold your thoughts. When your sound comes back, we would love to hear what you think. I think you can hear us, but we just can’t hear you. So I’m not sure what changed. So if we think about that, then Shannon, if we say it’s about a consistent way of evaluating, that totally makes sense. Let’s talk a little bit about that power dynamic around TA. And you’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. I think we’ve all seen it. Like, what does that look like when everybody thinks that they have the right to tell us how to hire or give feedback? How do you go about establishing yourself as that expert, that leader, pulling in data, using that information to say, “Hey, we got this”?

Shannon Taylor 35:17

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. And it’s one that we… as TA professionals, right? It’s one that we battle with and have battled with for a very, very long time, right? And “battle” is… it’s probably not the best word for it, but I think it might be the right word. It’s an interesting… it’s an interesting dynamic, because we in talent acquisition also leverage those same people to help us fill jobs. And so there’s this sort of “we want you, but we don’t want your opinion, but we kind of need your opinion, but we want to get you in this process.” And it’s what I think about it is… is in the way of referral programs, right? The reason that we created referral programs is because, as an organization, one, we want to be able to attract talent, right? We want to use our collective organization to help us fill positions with like people, relatively, that if they’re high performers, hopefully they work and know and hang out with other like performers that may ultimately come to the organization and create some stickiness, and, you know, all of those different things. But that also means that we’ve invited them subconsciously into that process. Yeah, yeah, right? And so we can’t have it both ways, right? And so one of the things that… that I say, particularly as it relates to talent acquisition, is, I don’t make decisions. I make recommendations. Right? My job is to… is to ultimately guide you to make the right decision. But ultimately, business is your decision. And so if I take that from that perspective, I’m there to sort of support the business. And so their feedback, their desire to… I think their desire to help, maybe comes off as the desire to tell you what to do. And really what… what you have to do is… is you have to be, one, a little bit thick-skinned, and say, “I hear you.” And people have to feel heard. And then secondly is you have to come back and explain to them, to what Matt mentioned earlier, which is going back to “what are you really solving for?” and “Let me help you get to what you’re solving for.” Because the natural reaction, particularly from whether it’s a hiring leader or a CEO or CFO or any executive in an organization that runs a function, most times they’re doing two things. They’re reacting to information that somebody has given them where they have a gap in their team that is really giving them pain, and they’re trying to do something to solve for that. And so if you understand where they’re coming from… so let’s just say, for example, if they’re reacting to information that somebody is giving them… as a TA professional, whether you’re the recruiter or whether you’re the head of TA, having the data that speaks to what’s happening, that fully gives a picture of how you can help support them, will then create credibility for you and give you sort of the ammo and say, ammunition or the backup that you need to sort of usher that individual through that talent process. What happens is—and we all get stuck into it, right—is a leader comes in. They’re, you know, they’re not happy. You got to have this call at 8 AM, and you’re having this whole thing. And so you’re reacting to an emotional decision or an emotional reaction or them trying to… and so you have to kind of be able to say, “Okay, I hear you.” And then ultimately come back and say, “Here’s what we need to do, and here’s how we get there. Here’s the data behind it and the why behind the what,” which then ultimately will get you to a point of building credibility. It will get you to the piece of you becoming more than just somebody that’s filling jobs, but more of a talent advisor. And then you will find yourself in meetings that have nothing to do with talent acquisition that ultimately will land with talent.

Rebecca Warren 39:10

I really like that. And so Matt, we’re going to test your audio in a second. I really like that. That thought of… most of the time, leaders are either reacting to data—good, bad, or ugly—or they have a gap, or they have a problem that they’re trying to fill. So nobody’s trying to get in your way intentionally. They’ve got different objectives that they’re trying to achieve than you are. So how do you get that alignment? And so Matt, let’s do a test. How are we… Oh, no, we’re not back yet. Dang it! No, not yet. Punch the buttons, do the things. Oh, maybe now? Nope, say something. No, darn it. You’re gonna have to type all your responses for us to read. Oh, darn it. I hate when that stuff happens. Alright, we’ll let you figure that out for a second. So I think… I know I’ve got so many notes here, and I really want to make sure that we hear from Matt. But we might have to continue on here. So when we’re thinking about alignment, and we’re thinking about making sure that we are all reacting or focusing on that right gap, looking at what that outcome looks like, what are… like, if you were to think about in your role, and so maybe Shannon gives me kind of a… depending on how deep you want to go into what you’re doing right now. Like, what do you do on the reg to make sure that you’ve got alignment with the business, that your tech tools are aligned? If you see somebody going rogue, like, how do you handle that to make sure that you’re supporting your team as well as focusing on those business outcomes?

Shannon Taylor 41:14

Ooh, so… I know, yeah, that’s, that’s a big one. So one of the things I think, and I’ll try to answer this, and you tell me if I missed the question. But if I think about one of the… my recruiters on the team who is working with the hiring leader, and it really is driven by the process, right? And so “process” is this big word, right, that is very bureaucratic in nature, and can… and to me, “process” means slow, right? When you say “process,” you mean slow. And so when I mean “process,” I mean it’s the steps in which we take to ensure that we get as much of the information upfront so that we don’t fall short at the end. And so it’s kind of sometimes one of those things where I… what I kind of use is, we have to sometimes go slow to go fast.

Rebecca Warren 42:12

Yeah, right. You’re talking about aligning, like an intake meeting, or making sure that everybody’s working from that same sheet of music.

Shannon Taylor 42:19

And so the way to do that, one is particularly on the frontend, right? That intake conversation is one that I think is truly important for a recruiter when starting a search at whatever level. And I mean, now we can talk about high volume… we take high volume out of the case, in some cases, because if we’re hiring call center agents that are working, hiring salespeople nine times out of 10, if that recruiter supports a particular region, those roles, they kind of get to know that group. But we’re talking sort of non-high volume roles that you don’t fill every year or every two years or every three years. In some cases, having that true intake with that leader is going to be important because that sets the stage for what they’re… what’s happening in their business. If you’re asking the right questions as a recruiter, right: What’s happening in their business? What are they looking to solve in the talent? And then confirming that it aligns from a job description perspective. Sure. Because what happens is—and we all know this—is that there is a job description, right, and then there’s this checkbox that’s in the hiring leader’s head that a candidate needs to have in order to actually fit the job, right? And so you got to make sure that that job description aligns relatively closely to those, let’s call it, checklist items, and it’s also a job description that is actually relevant in the market. Yeah. So this is sort of the opportunity for the recruiter to say, “The job title is Sales Associate. Well, we’re not looking for Sales Associates. We’re looking for high-end people that can clientele with data, right? That’s not a Sales Associate, right? So let’s now talk about, what is the real title for the role? What are the real things you’re looking for?” Because the job description says they need three to five years of this. “And is that really what you need?” “Well, I need someone that has this, this.” “Well, none of that is in here, right? Let’s figure out how we get to that, right?”

Rebecca Warren 44:29

Okay, so hang on for just a second. First, Matt test, test… No, I’m so sad. No, dang it. Okay. Keep trying. Maybe, maybe completely get out of the platform altogether, like, disappear and come back in, and we’ll see if that resets it. Shannon, we’re going to put you on the spot one more time. Okay, so before… so, so let’s pause there for a second, because the intake meeting is a big deal. The intake meeting is one that we’ve talked about all the time, right? Like, I know in TA I would always say, like, “Hey, bring some profiles from LinkedIn with you to kind of set the scene.” So let’s switch, because I’m watching the time here, and it’s going fast. How can we think about that, you know? So I have some folks who say, like, “Hey, we got rid of the intake meeting because we have AI to align on what we’re looking for. It’s in our platform that we’re using, we don’t have to do the intake meeting. Or we can do it directly in our platform or the tool that we’re using, and we don’t have to do that.” So how are you thinking… let’s just switch that a bit. How are you thinking about using AI or tech to get that alignment to move faster? Because I think about, sometimes my intake meetings took forever to schedule, and then you’re back and forth, and then you’re trying to align on profiles. And you know, you get down the road, and you have that first slate of candidates, and they’re like, “That’s not really what I’m looking for,” right? Like, it’s the biggest frustration, waste of time, candidate experience, all of that. So how are you thinking about using tech to do that alignment, to get us moving faster, to get candidates in the door, to create that candidate experience, that recruiter experience, and that hiring manager experience, all aligning on those things? Okay, one second before I answer… Matt? No, no, we’re so sad. We’re crying. Okay, okay. So Shannon, back to you to answer that. You keep figuring that out, and Matt, just chirp anytime you want, just to test it. And if we hear you, then we’ll pause. Oh, he’s gone again. Dang it. Okay. So how are you thinking about using tech to help solve some of those speed issues?

Shannon Taylor 46:38

Yeah, so that’s… I think we’re all on that journey of, where can tech solve some of that, right? And I think tech is not going to solve it on the intake, at least in my view. I don’t know that it’s going to solve it on the intake. And partly because I sort of think of… you know, when you look at talent acquisition and, you know, it’s like when you’re a pilot and you inspect the plane, you know you need to just go ahead and just double-check. And I think that intake is our double-check before we take off.

Rebecca Warren 47:05

That “human in the lead,” right? You feel like there has to be a human in that alignment meeting. Okay, fair.

Shannon Taylor 47:14

Now, where you can leverage technology is… so you can be engaged in that meeting, it can capture the bullet points and make a recap so that we’re all aligned, and you can use it to create minutes and moments. I think technology then comes into other places where you can smooth out that ride from a talent acquisition perspective. And as the systems and the agents become better and better and better, I think there are ways in which you can plug those in earlier and more often in the process to sort of usher along that supply chain of talent that you’re working through. But I do always think there’s got to be a human at the front of that, particularly in order to have that alignment of things that just aren’t there, right? It’s the unknowns. It’s the “in the mind” pieces that you’re trying to get out of the hiring leader that’s ultimately making a decision, because AI is not making the decision, right? So how do you kind of pull that out?

Rebecca Warren 48:04

So, okay, I think that is smart. Like we have so many conversations with prospects, with customers, about how do we keep humans in the lead? We want to make sure we’re using tech to get faster, smarter, better, but not to make those ultimate decisions. And so how are you also thinking about… like we talk about that alignment between hiring manager expectations and the job description and all of that, but when we think about the data, the data should help us tell different stories. And so how are you thinking about using that alignment on data to say, “You think you want this, and the recruiter says, ‘I think I’ve got this.’ But actually what you need is this,” right? Like using skills as your foundation, putting non-traditional candidates in front. Like, how are you thinking about tech and data can help change that mindset? Hold on a second, Matt. Hey… back. Okay, we’re gonna have Shannon answer that question, and then you’re gonna be on the spot for the next nine minutes. Okay, go ahead, Shannon, answer that. I’d love to have you chime in, Matt.

Shannon Taylor 49:18

Real quick. I want to get Matt’s juice in here because I think he’s got some really great stuff. But I would just say, particularly with how technology fits into the gap, right, is technology and data can be used to inform the skill that is required, right? So, for example, we see this in technology all the time. You have a leader that has an opening, and he or she says, “I need a developer that has this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill, this skill.” And ultimately, while that’s all well and good, the market realities are, yeah, somebody has three of those five skills, all five of those skills… those are unicorns. Number one, they don’t exist. And number three, you can’t afford them. And so, right…

Rebecca Warren 50:07

“You want seven years of experience, but the tech’s only been out for three,” right?

Shannon Taylor 50:11

It’s actually what’s happening with, you know, AI, right? Is you got, “I want people that can do all these great things with AI that implemented all this stuff.” And ultimately, we’re all just… we’re building a plane while we’re flying it out.

Rebecca Warren 50:21

Exactly. So, yeah, okay. Okay, Matt, we’re waiting for eight minutes of wisdom drops.

Matt Morgan 50:32

No, I am gonna pull on the thread that Shannon just put out there. So I’ve got one of my high-tech clients that continues to think about needing people that can code and can do all these different things. If you extrapolate from that, yes, they’re technical skill sets that are important. But with our AI tools today, do you actually still need those things? Instead, do you need people that can understand prompt engineering, but can also operate in the gray, can learn, can collaborate with others? So shifting the narrative to be the combination of the technical and the behavioral—which sometimes the behavioral can take a little bit of the back seat, right, being honest in technical disciplines—but then also thinking about the way work is delivered differently. So, like, you know, software development lifecycle is still there. It’s being reinvented in real time, right? So, like, and that’s true of any process, any body of work across organizations. We are… we’re building the bridge as we’re crossing it as AI tools are evolving, right, to Shannon’s point earlier. So then, how can we press our business leaders to think differently about the work? How can we press our business leaders to think differently about the skills that they need to do the work as it’s evolving? And don’t… it’s kind of like when you’re—to some of our jokes earlier—hitting a golf shot, or shooting, or something like that. It’s like, “Don’t aim for where the target is today. Aim for where the target is going to be,” right?

Rebecca Warren 52:01

Where’s the puck going?

Matt Morgan 52:02

Exactly, exactly. Shift the narrative. Get them to be future-forward. Data and technology can help inform a lot of that discussion, right? Like, “Here are the trends we’re seeing from an external labor market intelligence standpoint. Here are some examples from other organizations.” But you gotta paint that story, right, to get them in the boat, to get them heading in that direction. That’s a combination of behavior change. And then to Shannon’s point, it’s having the right data to have the right conversations at the right points in time.

Rebecca Warren 52:29

Yeah. So I think there are a couple of things there. I think that was a great way to tack on to the stuff that Shannon was saying. And Shannon, thanks for letting me pick your brain continuously while we were figuring things out. But I think there are a couple of things there. So I think it’s the shift in organizations, because AI has allowed us to process things more quickly, adding value, right? If we think about Gen AI, we think about LLMs. I mean, we think about all of the pieces that go into it. We think about agentic. What are the agents now doing for us? I think that shift for us… and I wrote about this in a couple of articles about the difference between crystallized knowledge and fluid intelligence. Like, what do we know? What have we learned from hard knocks, from, you know, experience? What have we put into our brains that we know? That’s that crystallized knowledge. Now, AI is really helping or forcing us to focus on that fluid knowledge, because the things that we know aren’t necessarily the things that are going to get us there. It’s like, “What got us here isn’t going to get us there.” So that fluid knowledge, that ability to see around the corners, asking different questions… But that alignment is really important. Because Shannon, if you are focused on seeing around the corner, and you’ve got a leader who’s very focused on, “Well, I’m only hiring people who know these things,” there’s that disconnect, right? So it’s that shift in the business that we have to think about: moving to that curiosity, to that agility, to that ability to pivot, to not say, “I need to hire somebody who’s got this degree and these seven skills,” but “What’s the work that needs to be done, and how are we going to get the right people to do the work?” To what we’re talking about, to focus on the outcomes, as opposed to saying, “Oh, well, we’ve got to have a checklist.” So I think there are some shifts there that are hard. They’re really hard, and our processes aren’t necessarily aligned to that way of working, either. So… so let’s hit that. We’ve got… oh my gosh, so fast. Let’s just talk about that. What would a cohesive internal partnership do for the way that HR and TA teams are perceived inside of an organization? Like, using that data, telling that story… what would that do for the HR and the TA teams? Do you think it would fundamentally change how work gets done?

Matt Morgan 55:04

I think there’s a shift in perception of HR, right? Like to some of the points I think that Shannon was making earlier. I also think it’s a rethink of just the flow of mobilizing skills and talent in the organization. Like, you could say some of the kind of broad statements, like, “It needs to be more adaptable. It needs to be more strategic.” If there’s… like, “Okay, that’s all well and good. Okay, fine, and yes, behavior change is critical. Like, we need to be able to have conversations as human beings and reset how we’re treating each other and look differently at data.” That’s all well and good and is all needed. However, if you think about having discussions with your managers, with your leaders, with human beings around the skills I’m trying to build, I think there’s an opportunity to reinforce ownership of employees in their careers, ownership of candidates in the process, that it’s a two-way street. Like, things that any good recruiter has said for years, any good HR practitioner has said for years, right? Like, “Hey, you’ve got the tools. You can do this. You can own your career.” That’s all true. It’s never more true than now. Like, using AI tools with data, with the business… I tell my teams all the time, like, “Look, you can say no to things. You can think differently about processes. You can press the envelope on how you’re delivering work. You can press our leadership.” We had a session in our DC office just last week. We were talking to a group of candidates coming in, and we said, “Look, like, fundamental staffing models within organizations, like pyramid structures, things like that, are being uprooted presently based on how work is being delivered. That’s an opportunity for you, right?” I think recruiters have a front-seat role in that. I think HRBPs have a front-seat role in that. So like, they need to shift the narrative with the business, yes. But I also think for people coming into organizations, early-career talent coming into organizations, there’s a lot of press out there around how, like, you know, early-career options are going away and things like that. I disagree with that. Like, I think there’s more of a problem for middle management showing value than there is a problem with early-career talent coming in, because you need the new thinking. And some of that is ripping off the band-aid for everybody involved and thinking differently about work, as Shannon was saying earlier. Some of that too is, like, “Look, we’ve got people that are coming in that, with the AI tools and being more digitally native, are more forward-thinking than some of our senior-most leaders.” Yeah, it is what it is, and that’s a good thing, right? Like, challenge the status quo, that’s great.

Rebecca Warren 57:33

Well, it’s that… it’s that connection, too. We call it reverse mentoring. Like, what do we learn from the folks coming in? What do we know? Right? How do we share that knowledge in a way that feels respectful and helpful to the business? I talk about early careers… I talk about: stop giving them the grunt work and start giving them the growth work. How can they actually do the work and the shadowing and some of those things? Okay, we are at time, and so what I want to get from both of you is a 30-second… if you could give one piece of advice for leaders and folks who are listening to this webinar right now, if you could give one piece of advice for something that would change their life, what would you give them? Shannon, you go first. Then Matt, we’ll have you wrap it up.

Shannon Taylor 58:14

Mine is gonna be really quick, and it’s gonna be… and that’s curiosity. If you don’t have it, get it, and if you do have it, lean more into it. Curiosity is going to be the new skillset for the future.

Rebecca Warren 58:28

Alright, Matt, what do you say?

Matt Morgan 58:29

Time at level or years of experience is quickly becoming a dead concept. Yes, that crystallized… Well, like, we need to think differently about the skills and experience that people are bringing and how they can press the status quo. And I think that is a big shift with a multi-generational workforce of like, “Hey, I’ve got it. I’ve been here before,” things like that. There’s still value there, but we need to be open to new thoughts, new ideas, now more than ever, with the tools that we have at our disposal, right?

Rebecca Warren 59:01

Think about the work that needs to get done, as opposed to this laundry list of things that have to be accomplished first. Okay, appreciate you both. Thank you so much for the time. I think this is a great conversation, way more to talk about, but I think we’ve poked the bear a little bit. We’ve uncovered some things. So thank you for joining, everyone, and this is the conclusion of the April Talent Table, and we are out. Have a great day, everyone. You too.